2014 Pilot Discussion
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A320 Driver
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- Aug 24, 2002
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I agree that concessions at this point don't make sense, but let me throw something out there. With parts of 3 contracts and sets of work rules still in use, one part or the other of whatever is decided will be concessionary. Case in point...the America West contract as far as work rules were concerned was superior to what we on the East had and what AA has. So just about anything that is decided regarding work rules will be concessionary to the West. It's unfortunate, but that's just the way things are. The true concessions IMO, were things like extending the contract for another year. It makes no sense for us to do that. The 2 hour callout is another. Hopefully real progress was made yesterday and we will see something worth having next month.luvthe9 said:
A320 Driver
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- Aug 24, 2002
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That showed some class...luvthe9 said:
A320 Driver
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I also think the company should leave the items alone that were TAd. I understand they pulled all that back when we pushed back against their proposal.
Al Legheny
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- Jul 21, 2009
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The problem is: The arbitration won't get Delta Rates.
The company offer will probably not match the new Delta rates.
The only error in this email is that USAPA both East and West are still under a restraining order from judge Conrad. USAPA attempted to remove it earlier this year but judge Conrad refused and the order still stands.
Demand a Vote and Intellectual Honesty
Fellow pilots,
I want you to know that your Board of Directors has been hard at work the last several months developing a plan and Negotiating strategy that squeezes the absolute maximum we can out of the process in what amounts to a limited box as outlined in the MOU and the JCBA process. Unfortunately, the reality is that we are not in Section 6 negotiations where APA would have more immediate options. The JCBA process was not designed or written as a bridge to an Industry Leading Contract.
Nowhere do the MOU guidelines mandate the company to meet or exceed the DAL contract, does it mandate that the company must give us everything we want because we deserve it as part of the JCBA process or current record profits. The MOU paragraph 27 language is pretty clear and arbitration has a cost-neutral backstop: MOU link
While there are those that want to blow it up now, as well as those that desire a bargained agreement, its my belief that there is more to be gained for our pilot group in a bargained agreement particularly when weighed against the limitations of a cost-neutral arbitration. The APA BOD has directed that bargaining continue and our APA N.O's and Negotiators will continue to send the message of our dissatisfaction with the MOU limitations as we try to button up final items on what will hopefully result in a T.A. for us to send to you for ratification next month.
All of us on the APA BOD agree with you-----our membership deserves more and AAG management would be smart to fully address economic issues from full LOS to Group II/III pay rates, to LTD, etc. They feel that Industry leading PAY on date of signing is generous enoughand we disagree.... Strongly..... Normally, I would not have a problem walking down the arbitration path under such conditions but as paragraph 27 of the MOU points out, this is a backstop of COST NEUTRAL Arbitration. Anyone that thinks that nearly a billion dollars in real compensation for our members is not at stake in arbitration is not informed. Anyone who thinks we can get more in cost neutral arbitration is smoking something illegal (at least in most states). However, a management proposal that only contains pay will not satisfy this pilot group with respect to what they feel they have truly earned and deserve, and a bargained agreement now does not prevent us from expressing that sentiment in the longer term.
APAs new former US Air/ America West Board members have provided us all with further insight and a new perception and storied history of Mr. Parker and Mr. Kirby. To some degree we all have justifiable frustrations and tumultuous pasts with our respective management teams on all sides of the Board table that should not cloud our judgment in making sound, unemotional decisions like this. We also have many newly-elected Board members on the Board that were elected based on promises they made of Compensation and QWL improvements that are simply not achievable within the current MOU/ JCBA language and box we find ourselves in. There is not a mechanism to make it so. FACTS can be difficult to find sometimes amid the politics, and I'm seeing a lot of pent up anger, emotion, and election promises filtering into APA BOD policy and JCBA bargaining decisions.
Some on the Board who earlier promoted "letting the membership decide" when it fit their POLITICAL agendas have now come out and reversed course and are beating their chests and saying "the buck stops here" and "that's why they were elected to make the tough decisions".. thats mighty convenient. These same Board members want you to vote on a contract when it fits their needs or when it looks like you will fall in line with their (membership wide) minority view----but on something as important as nearly a billion bucks out of your pockets----they want to use a division of the house/minority vote at the BOD table" to block your ability to have a say and possibly play chicken and high stakes poker with a stacked deck in arbitration with YOUR money. They will ignore/deny the unpalatable restrictions of the MOU and JCBA process and instead emotionally rally the troops by falsely telling you that we have all this leverage and that you will get more in arbitration and "there's more to be had".Really? By what mechanism? "Shut the #### down?" Ask our US Airways counterparts how that worked-----their permanent TRO was just lifted. (A TRO that Parker tied them up with for years). Following this strategy APA will, at a minimum, be in arbitration and fighting for years to obtain what's on the table now.
The pilots of APA are the key players who leveraged, choreographed and brought us to the merger and now, with an airline that has a bright future, over $100k in potential individual pilot equity, and a JCBA process that is worth up to $1billion + over the life of the contract, we need reason not rhetoric to guide us forward. There is a time to support something and a time to tank something----(and I voted NO on LBFO 1 for the record). The tougher decision right now is to realize the nasty box we are in, be intellectually honest, arrive at decisions by rational thought that attains the most for the members in a very stacked deck box we are in. "Just saying NO" is the easy path here and will provide some with "I demanded Industry Leading" political cover...... I get it.
This isn't Section 6 and there isn't going to be a "Braniff Christmas" here guys------the offer on the table makes you the highest PAID passenger pilots in the industry on date of signing. Good luck with a media campaign in THIS economy saying "we are the highest paid but we didn't get our profit sharing LTD fixed and we have to do back side of the clock landing sims so screw this, we deserve more!!".. (Meanwhile, It took Delta pilots 6 years to attain just surpassing our pre-bankruptcy hourly rates in 2012---yet these guys expect to surpass DAL this year with an across the Board ILC inside ONE year of BK exit?). By what mechanism? Emotion? Because we deserve it? Good luck with that.this is business pure and simple.
Parker is on record saying "I will pay you Delta pay when we make Delta profits"OK, they are.he did not say he would give us Delta pay and Delta profit sharing and a Delta plus up and escalators for the coming raises Delta pilots have----nor did he say he would do it in the JCBA process. Pattern bargaining....hitting singles and doubles.....that is how we will make advancement. Whether you like it or not, and no matter how much you've been promised or think we deserve-----obviously Parker and company have come to the conclusion that paying us DAL rates now is way above what they are mandated to give us in the "second bite at the apple" MOU guidelines and JCBA process. Those are the unarguable facts of the matter.
Look, I'm as pissed as any about the pay amount, I KNOW we deserve more, I dislike the way they have stone-walled us at the table, and I've tried with others through the process to get the QWL improvements pushed through.......I don't like the company "asks" that they demand------"we asked and they said no" is a dead-end business relationship. So now what? What are you going to do about it? Get emotional and abandon the money currently on the table just to "show them"? Go off the reservation? Again, good luck with that. How far up the hill of the unknown are we going to ride with our gray hair flying in the breeze of battle, wearing our pleather flight jackets and riding bareback on our war horses with no real battle plan or mechanism to attain more in an arbitration?
I recommend APAs line pilots demand a VOTE on this JCBA, get educated about the MOU/JCBA process, recognize the box your Board and your negotiators have been operating in, what the company is mandated to do, and what is at stake by letting this fall off the table to an arbitrated decision. Ask yourself if you want to be pissed off with a roughly 18% raise retroactive to Dec. 1st and yearly raises going forward totaling in the neighborhood of $100k more in your pocket over the life of the contract OR get pissed off, emotionally light the joint up and get less in arbitration? Remember. either way you can show your level of enthusiasm yet one way would be sort of "fiscally dumb" and potentially leave your pockets lighter to the tune of up to $1 billion in collective jingle by way of a cost neutral arbitrated award.
While I do try to stay off the "Thunder Dome" these days for the most part, on a recent drive-by I liked a recent post I read on C&R and got a good chuckle----it went something like (a guy calling the company on the phone): "you hear that? I just lit a stick of dynamite!!" -----(effectively blowing himself up on his end of the phone line).
Thank you for the opportunity to serve you during these interesting times. Let's be smart and make decisions without emotion. More to follow and look for upcoming base meetings. Stay engaged, send the Board Soundoffs, and get all the info you can. Please demand a Vote!
Happy Thanksgiving and Fly Safe.
The company offer will probably not match the new Delta rates.
The only error in this email is that USAPA both East and West are still under a restraining order from judge Conrad. USAPA attempted to remove it earlier this year but judge Conrad refused and the order still stands.
Demand a Vote and Intellectual Honesty
Fellow pilots,
I want you to know that your Board of Directors has been hard at work the last several months developing a plan and Negotiating strategy that squeezes the absolute maximum we can out of the process in what amounts to a limited box as outlined in the MOU and the JCBA process. Unfortunately, the reality is that we are not in Section 6 negotiations where APA would have more immediate options. The JCBA process was not designed or written as a bridge to an Industry Leading Contract.
Nowhere do the MOU guidelines mandate the company to meet or exceed the DAL contract, does it mandate that the company must give us everything we want because we deserve it as part of the JCBA process or current record profits. The MOU paragraph 27 language is pretty clear and arbitration has a cost-neutral backstop: MOU link
While there are those that want to blow it up now, as well as those that desire a bargained agreement, its my belief that there is more to be gained for our pilot group in a bargained agreement particularly when weighed against the limitations of a cost-neutral arbitration. The APA BOD has directed that bargaining continue and our APA N.O's and Negotiators will continue to send the message of our dissatisfaction with the MOU limitations as we try to button up final items on what will hopefully result in a T.A. for us to send to you for ratification next month.
All of us on the APA BOD agree with you-----our membership deserves more and AAG management would be smart to fully address economic issues from full LOS to Group II/III pay rates, to LTD, etc. They feel that Industry leading PAY on date of signing is generous enoughand we disagree.... Strongly..... Normally, I would not have a problem walking down the arbitration path under such conditions but as paragraph 27 of the MOU points out, this is a backstop of COST NEUTRAL Arbitration. Anyone that thinks that nearly a billion dollars in real compensation for our members is not at stake in arbitration is not informed. Anyone who thinks we can get more in cost neutral arbitration is smoking something illegal (at least in most states). However, a management proposal that only contains pay will not satisfy this pilot group with respect to what they feel they have truly earned and deserve, and a bargained agreement now does not prevent us from expressing that sentiment in the longer term.
APAs new former US Air/ America West Board members have provided us all with further insight and a new perception and storied history of Mr. Parker and Mr. Kirby. To some degree we all have justifiable frustrations and tumultuous pasts with our respective management teams on all sides of the Board table that should not cloud our judgment in making sound, unemotional decisions like this. We also have many newly-elected Board members on the Board that were elected based on promises they made of Compensation and QWL improvements that are simply not achievable within the current MOU/ JCBA language and box we find ourselves in. There is not a mechanism to make it so. FACTS can be difficult to find sometimes amid the politics, and I'm seeing a lot of pent up anger, emotion, and election promises filtering into APA BOD policy and JCBA bargaining decisions.
Some on the Board who earlier promoted "letting the membership decide" when it fit their POLITICAL agendas have now come out and reversed course and are beating their chests and saying "the buck stops here" and "that's why they were elected to make the tough decisions".. thats mighty convenient. These same Board members want you to vote on a contract when it fits their needs or when it looks like you will fall in line with their (membership wide) minority view----but on something as important as nearly a billion bucks out of your pockets----they want to use a division of the house/minority vote at the BOD table" to block your ability to have a say and possibly play chicken and high stakes poker with a stacked deck in arbitration with YOUR money. They will ignore/deny the unpalatable restrictions of the MOU and JCBA process and instead emotionally rally the troops by falsely telling you that we have all this leverage and that you will get more in arbitration and "there's more to be had".Really? By what mechanism? "Shut the #### down?" Ask our US Airways counterparts how that worked-----their permanent TRO was just lifted. (A TRO that Parker tied them up with for years). Following this strategy APA will, at a minimum, be in arbitration and fighting for years to obtain what's on the table now.
The pilots of APA are the key players who leveraged, choreographed and brought us to the merger and now, with an airline that has a bright future, over $100k in potential individual pilot equity, and a JCBA process that is worth up to $1billion + over the life of the contract, we need reason not rhetoric to guide us forward. There is a time to support something and a time to tank something----(and I voted NO on LBFO 1 for the record). The tougher decision right now is to realize the nasty box we are in, be intellectually honest, arrive at decisions by rational thought that attains the most for the members in a very stacked deck box we are in. "Just saying NO" is the easy path here and will provide some with "I demanded Industry Leading" political cover...... I get it.
This isn't Section 6 and there isn't going to be a "Braniff Christmas" here guys------the offer on the table makes you the highest PAID passenger pilots in the industry on date of signing. Good luck with a media campaign in THIS economy saying "we are the highest paid but we didn't get our profit sharing LTD fixed and we have to do back side of the clock landing sims so screw this, we deserve more!!".. (Meanwhile, It took Delta pilots 6 years to attain just surpassing our pre-bankruptcy hourly rates in 2012---yet these guys expect to surpass DAL this year with an across the Board ILC inside ONE year of BK exit?). By what mechanism? Emotion? Because we deserve it? Good luck with that.this is business pure and simple.
Parker is on record saying "I will pay you Delta pay when we make Delta profits"OK, they are.he did not say he would give us Delta pay and Delta profit sharing and a Delta plus up and escalators for the coming raises Delta pilots have----nor did he say he would do it in the JCBA process. Pattern bargaining....hitting singles and doubles.....that is how we will make advancement. Whether you like it or not, and no matter how much you've been promised or think we deserve-----obviously Parker and company have come to the conclusion that paying us DAL rates now is way above what they are mandated to give us in the "second bite at the apple" MOU guidelines and JCBA process. Those are the unarguable facts of the matter.
Look, I'm as pissed as any about the pay amount, I KNOW we deserve more, I dislike the way they have stone-walled us at the table, and I've tried with others through the process to get the QWL improvements pushed through.......I don't like the company "asks" that they demand------"we asked and they said no" is a dead-end business relationship. So now what? What are you going to do about it? Get emotional and abandon the money currently on the table just to "show them"? Go off the reservation? Again, good luck with that. How far up the hill of the unknown are we going to ride with our gray hair flying in the breeze of battle, wearing our pleather flight jackets and riding bareback on our war horses with no real battle plan or mechanism to attain more in an arbitration?
I recommend APAs line pilots demand a VOTE on this JCBA, get educated about the MOU/JCBA process, recognize the box your Board and your negotiators have been operating in, what the company is mandated to do, and what is at stake by letting this fall off the table to an arbitrated decision. Ask yourself if you want to be pissed off with a roughly 18% raise retroactive to Dec. 1st and yearly raises going forward totaling in the neighborhood of $100k more in your pocket over the life of the contract OR get pissed off, emotionally light the joint up and get less in arbitration? Remember. either way you can show your level of enthusiasm yet one way would be sort of "fiscally dumb" and potentially leave your pockets lighter to the tune of up to $1 billion in collective jingle by way of a cost neutral arbitrated award.
While I do try to stay off the "Thunder Dome" these days for the most part, on a recent drive-by I liked a recent post I read on C&R and got a good chuckle----it went something like (a guy calling the company on the phone): "you hear that? I just lit a stick of dynamite!!" -----(effectively blowing himself up on his end of the phone line).
Thank you for the opportunity to serve you during these interesting times. Let's be smart and make decisions without emotion. More to follow and look for upcoming base meetings. Stay engaged, send the Board Soundoffs, and get all the info you can. Please demand a Vote!
Happy Thanksgiving and Fly Safe.
nevergiveup
Veteran
- Nov 30, 2010
- 2,125
- 2,148
2 hrs normal driving time?
What does it really say in the company's request?
What does it really say in the company's request?
A320 Driver
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- Aug 24, 2002
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The process is ongoing. It will be weeks before anything is final for the BOD to look at. As we have just seen, the "final offer" wasn't quite as final as was indicated.
Phoenix
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- Apr 16, 2003
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I hope a member of the BOD isnt writing apologies and excuses about an inevitable "process."A320 Driver said:
We are in negotiations, not a process. And white flag apology excuse letters are part of negotiation manipulations. Surely a BOD member or national officer wouldn't whine publicly about how they can't suceed...expecting themselves to fail? Surely..?
A320 Driver
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- Aug 24, 2002
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I didn't read it that way. It is a process and certainly not negotiations in the conventional sense. The JCBA is a hybrid with boundaries outlined in the MOU. We may be able to get more out of it without concessions and that is a good thing for everyone. Personally, I think the expectations weren't managed well and many expected the equivalent of Section 6 negotiations.
We'll see...
We'll see...
Phoenix
Veteran
- Apr 16, 2003
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A320 Driver said:
IMHO negotiations are simply negotiations. Always. Nothing more. Claims otherwise are simply efforts to stack the deck (strategies in the negotiations).
Wo cares that we can't strike via section 6.... the pilots of AA would never be released to strike. Never. So we are in negotiations.
And by the way, DUI would never let an arbitrator decide an entire JCBA.. the wild unknown possibilities are just too dangerous to risk letting an arbitrator have full reign on a multibillion dollar company. Is NOT gonna happen. Never. One only needs to look at Nicolau and what it did to ALPA to see that DUI will never be allowed by his BOD to do something as stupid as arbitrate a JCBA. Sure, the company could explore the arbitration path like they are with the FAs, but only as a means of forcing a negotiated and ratified JCBA. Check back when the FAs finally have their JCBA and call me on it if I am wrong.
So once again we are in negotiations, accept for a couple pigeons who are eating up and repeating the Glass/Parker/Kirby narrative that we aren't really in negotiations.
So, we are in negotiations, and any posturing is only a means to an end to get a negotiated JCBA..
- May 8, 2007
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So, WHAT ARE YOU PREPARED TO DO?Phoenix said:
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