2014 Pilot Discussion

[end_of_alpa]

Respectfully, I disagree.
 
Consider the condition of the  industry.  Very soon Delta and United will be in negotiations on their new contracts.  It APA entertains giving up scope now it will happen at Delta and United.  My personal bet is that is exactly what Parker and Kirby are counting on.  United and Delta management will ask for 5 seats on top of our 81.  This is not about 5 seats, its about gutting scope in total.  Get the big picture.  There are only 3 major airlines.  If we give up and go to 81, Delta will go for 86.  United will be forced to go for more.
 
If you would entertain it at all wait to see what the others will do.Tell Parker and Kirby to come back after the others have closed.  Look to the language of the other contracts to see if they will have clauses that will open the contract if another carrier modifies scope.  That's the tell that it is not just about 5 seats.
 
As to the money, Parker and Kirby are all about the money and they will not put serious dollars on the table for a "little ole 5 seats".  If they do put the money on the table, then look very closely to the language.  Particularly for escape language that would allow them to reopen or adjust scope upwards if other carriers modify theirs.  That's the only way they would pay significantly for those, "little ole 5 seats."  
 
This is not just 5 seats, this is an attempt to change the industry.  Who is going to fly the new MRJ (100 Seat RJ).  Who is going to fly the new E190's and the C-100 and C-300?  This is about changeing the industry with the new large RJ's just over the horizon.
 
The proposal will change the pay rates in the new contract for those RJ aircraft already negotiated but not yet on the property.  This is a big change not just a "little ole 5 seats."
 
Rant over.

You mean like the ground Envoy stood on when they voted down their latest contract?  You mean the "escape language" our union leaders put into the MOU?  You mean the resolve and unity ALPA and APA have after all these years of trying to screw the other guy?  You mean the way ALPA (United/Delta) APA has treated the Regional guys all these years?  

 

[im back..!!]

You mean like the ground Envoy stood on when they voted down their latest contract?  You mean the "escape language" our union leaders put into the MOU?  You mean the resolve and unity ALPA and APA have after all these years of trying to screw the other guy?  You mean the way ALPA (United/Delta) APA has treated the Regional guys all these years?  

Parker and Kirby wont need to come back after Delta and United sign. We (APA main line) will be flying E-190/E-175 for them at current MOU rates....
 
then they will get Scope later, after we have watched our opportunity to get an industry leadfing contract go away.
 
wake up, they will get the scope, once again, we will be left wondering how that happened, and explaining how we fought the good fight.....lol
 
Look how Delta pilots fared after they gave away the farm to management with Comair.... They were/are all wide body pilots, and Comair is gone.

 

[A320 Driver]

So take the money and give them the scope, right? Wonder what else is on their wish list once we cave on scope. Glass is here for one reason...to exploit every weakness.
 
The next two weeks should be very interesting, to say the least.

 

[nevergiveup]

So take the money and give them the scope, right? Wonder what else is on their wish list once we cave on scope. Glass is here for one reason...to exploit every weakness.
 
The next two weeks should be very interesting, to say the least.

If it goes to arbitration, the company may not get their scope relief. How much are they will to pay? 2018 pay rates beginning 2015? They have to offer it first. Accept nothing less! 

 

[nycbusdriver]

Glass is here for one reason...to exploit every weakness.
 

 
That's very true.  And this pilot group has a long, "colorful," unenviable history that gives it inherent, long-term weaknesses that will not go away within the next 10 years, if then.

 

[PullUp]

 
That's very true.  And this pilot group has a long, "colorful," unenviable history that gives it inherent, long-term weaknesses that will not go away within the next 10 years, if then.

Thank goodness the LUS pilots are now the minority voting block. The APA Adults might not be perfect, but if past performance is any indicator of future returns, we'll be OK going forward.
Cheers.

 

[nycbusdriver]

Thank goodness the LUS pilots are now the minority voting block. The APA Adults might not be perfect, but if past performance is any indicator of future returns, we'll be OK going forward.
Cheers.

 
Don't bet on it.
 
The last inarguably great decision APA made was over 50 years ago when they, like LUS, kicked ALPA to the curb.

 

[PullUp]

 
Don't bet on it.
 
The last inarguably great decision APA made was over 50 years ago when they, like LUS, kicked ALPA to the curb.

Shows good judgement. I would also submit the $100+K rewards each AA pilot received for agreeing to support our merger was a good move.
Now if they'd just believe us when we tell them the true nature of their new management and what's probably going to happen in the near future......
Cheers.

 

[EastUS1]

Shows good judgement. I would also submit the $100+K rewards each AA pilot received for agreeing to support our merger was a good move.
Now if they'd just believe us when we tell them the true nature of their new management and what's probably going to happen in the near future......
Cheers.

 
Well put.

 

[Al Legheny]

The landscape may be changing even as we speak.....


BLOOMBERG
news markets watchlist menu
United Said to Mull Embraer, CSeries Jets in Fleet Revamp
By Julie Johnsson, Michael Sasso and Andrea Rothman
November 05, 2014 4:55 PM EST 1 Comments

United Airlines (UAL) is in talks with Embraer SA (EMBR3) and Bombardier Inc. (BBD/B) to buy new narrow-body planes amid a fleet makeover to reduce its reliance on unprofitable regional jets, people familiar with the matter said.

The discussions involve the largest models in Embraers updated E-Jets family and Bombardiers smallest CSeries, said the people, who asked not to be identified because the details are private. An order isnt imminent, the people said.

An Embraer or Bombardier purchase would be a departure for Chicago-based United, whose pilots only fly Boeing Co. (BA) and Airbus Group NV (AIR) aircraft on its main jet routes. The jets under consideration would fill a gap between Uniteds narrow-bodies, most of which seat more than 150 people, and commuter planes carrying a maximum of 76 passengers.

Choosing one of the new planemakers also would let United place a separate order at the Express regional unit to replace its inefficient 50-seaters. Uniteds pilot contract lets it take more commuter aircraft, starting in 2016, as long as larger Embraer or Bombardier jets are added to the main fleet.
For regional-jet pioneers Embraer and Bombardier, a deal with United would boost their quest to weaken Boeing and Airbuss grip on sales of bigger aircraft to major U.S. airlines. Embraers two largest E2 planes will have about 140 seats, while the CS100 from Montreal-based Bombardier will carry 108 to 125 people.

Stock Advance
Bombardier rallied on the news and gained 1.6 percent to C$3.80 at the close in Toronto. Embraer rose 0.4 percent to 24.10 reais in Sao Paulo, while United slid 2 percent to $54.11.
United isnt giving details on its fleet strategy, which includes assessing new and used planes, said Megan McCarthy, a spokeswoman for parent United Continental Holdings Inc.
Were talking to all the manufacturers, McCarthy said in a telephone interview.

Chief Financial Officer John Rainey said Oct. 23 that United is shopping for used models from Embraer, Airbus and Boeing to take the place of the 50-seat jets being parked. United bought its first secondhand planes, two Boeing 737-700s, last quarter.

We dont necessarily want to go out and place a brand-new aircraft order that creates several billion dollars more of capital expenditures, Rainey said during a conference call to discuss third-quarter earnings.

Company Responses
Spokesmen for Airbus, Boeing and Sao Jose dos Campos, Brazil-based Embraer declined to comment on talks with United. Marianella de la Barrera, a Bombardier spokeswoman, said United is obviously an airline that were very interested in showing the CSeries to while declining to give details.
While Embraers E190-E2 and E195-E2 are re-engined updates of existing models, Bombardiers CSeries is an all-new aircraft. The planemaker has struggled to find buyers for the CSeries, whose commercial debut is now set for 2015s second half after missing a planned 2013 target.

The E2s, which wont start entering service until later this decade, list for as much as $62.4 million. The CS100s catalog price is $63 million. Airlines typically get discounts.
Uniteds results have been hurt by its dependence on 50-seat jets flown under contract by regional affiliates. Even with fuel prices retreating this year, a gallon of jet kerosene still costs about 50 percent more than a decade ago, eroding the economics that once made the small planes attractive.
We are too reliant on the 50-seat RJ, Rainey told analysts last month.

Pilot Contract

United can start adding bigger regional jets with 76 seats in 2016, on condition that it takes Embraer or Bombardier planes in the 100-seats-and-up category, according to the airlines pilot contract.
That agreement set a formula that lets United buy four 76-seaters -- such as Embraer E-175s -- for every five larger mainline planes it acquires, up to a total of 223 regional aircraft. Uniteds Express unit, which subcontracts flying to commuter carriers, can operate jets that seat as many as 76 passengers.
United has been replacing its 50-seaters with newer, more-efficient E-175s. McCarthy, the spokeswoman, said recent orders have pushed Uniteds tally to 153 of those planes, the maximum number allowed under the pilot contract.

Each time United replaces a 50-seat jet with an E-175, the airline generates over $1 million of annual improved profitability, Chief Revenue Officer Jim Compton said on the earnings call.

To contact the reporters on this story: Julie Johnsson in Chicago at jjohnsson@bloomberg.net; Michael Sasso in Atlanta at msasso9@bloomberg.net; Andrea Rothman in Toulouse at aerothman@bloomberg.net
To contact the editors responsible for this story: Ed Dufner at edufner@bloomberg.net Molly Schuetz, John Lear

 

[end_of_alpa]

The landscape may be changing even as we speak.....


BLOOMBERG
news markets watchlist menu
United Said to Mull Embraer, CSeries Jets in Fleet Revamp
By Julie Johnsson, Michael Sasso and Andrea Rothman
November 05, 2014 4:55 PM EST 1 Comments

United Airlines (UAL) is in talks with Embraer SA (EMBR3) and Bombardier Inc. (BBD/B) to buy new narrow-body planes amid a fleet makeover to reduce its reliance on unprofitable regional jets, people familiar with the matter said.

The discussions involve the largest models in Embraers updated E-Jets family and Bombardiers smallest CSeries, said the people, who asked not to be identified because the details are private. An order isnt imminent, the people said.

An Embraer or Bombardier purchase would be a departure for Chicago-based United, whose pilots only fly Boeing Co. (BA) and Airbus Group NV (AIR) aircraft on its main jet routes. The jets under consideration would fill a gap between Uniteds narrow-bodies, most of which seat more than 150 people, and commuter planes carrying a maximum of 76 passengers.

Choosing one of the new planemakers also would let United place a separate order at the Express regional unit to replace its inefficient 50-seaters. Uniteds pilot contract lets it take more commuter aircraft, starting in 2016, as long as larger Embraer or Bombardier jets are added to the main fleet.
For regional-jet pioneers Embraer and Bombardier, a deal with United would boost their quest to weaken Boeing and Airbuss grip on sales of bigger aircraft to major U.S. airlines. Embraers two largest E2 planes will have about 140 seats, while the CS100 from Montreal-based Bombardier will carry 108 to 125 people.

Stock Advance
Bombardier rallied on the news and gained 1.6 percent to C$3.80 at the close in Toronto. Embraer rose 0.4 percent to 24.10 reais in Sao Paulo, while United slid 2 percent to $54.11.
United isnt giving details on its fleet strategy, which includes assessing new and used planes, said Megan McCarthy, a spokeswoman for parent United Continental Holdings Inc.
Were talking to all the manufacturers, McCarthy said in a telephone interview.

Chief Financial Officer John Rainey said Oct. 23 that United is shopping for used models from Embraer, Airbus and Boeing to take the place of the 50-seat jets being parked. United bought its first secondhand planes, two Boeing 737-700s, last quarter.

We dont necessarily want to go out and place a brand-new aircraft order that creates several billion dollars more of capital expenditures, Rainey said during a conference call to discuss third-quarter earnings.

Company Responses
Spokesmen for Airbus, Boeing and Sao Jose dos Campos, Brazil-based Embraer declined to comment on talks with United. Marianella de la Barrera, a Bombardier spokeswoman, said United is obviously an airline that were very interested in showing the CSeries to while declining to give details.
While Embraers E190-E2 and E195-E2 are re-engined updates of existing models, Bombardiers CSeries is an all-new aircraft. The planemaker has struggled to find buyers for the CSeries, whose commercial debut is now set for 2015s second half after missing a planned 2013 target.

The E2s, which wont start entering service until later this decade, list for as much as $62.4 million. The CS100s catalog price is $63 million. Airlines typically get discounts.
Uniteds results have been hurt by its dependence on 50-seat jets flown under contract by regional affiliates. Even with fuel prices retreating this year, a gallon of jet kerosene still costs about 50 percent more than a decade ago, eroding the economics that once made the small planes attractive.
We are too reliant on the 50-seat RJ, Rainey told analysts last month.

Pilot Contract

United can start adding bigger regional jets with 76 seats in 2016, on condition that it takes Embraer or Bombardier planes in the 100-seats-and-up category, according to the airlines pilot contract.
That agreement set a formula that lets United buy four 76-seaters -- such as Embraer E-175s -- for every five larger mainline planes it acquires, up to a total of 223 regional aircraft. Uniteds Express unit, which subcontracts flying to commuter carriers, can operate jets that seat as many as 76 passengers.
United has been replacing its 50-seaters with newer, more-efficient E-175s. McCarthy, the spokeswoman, said recent orders have pushed Uniteds tally to 153 of those planes, the maximum number allowed under the pilot contract.

Each time United replaces a 50-seat jet with an E-175, the airline generates over $1 million of annual improved profitability, Chief Revenue Officer Jim Compton said on the earnings call.

To contact the reporters on this story: Julie Johnsson in Chicago at jjohnsson@bloomberg.net; Michael Sasso in Atlanta at msasso9@bloomberg.net; Andrea Rothman in Toulouse at aerothman@bloomberg.net
To contact the editors responsible for this story: Ed Dufner at edufner@bloomberg.net Molly Schuetz, John Lear

And to follow up on this thread, here is more of the plan.  DP gave his latest road show in ORD the other day.  YOU SHOULD ALL GO SEE IT.  I only saw two threads, the Pilot/FA contract clip and the profit sharing.  Here was his answers:  
 
1. Take what we give you or we go to Arbitration (he feels really good about it).  
 
2. Profit sharing....N-O! NINE, NADA, ZERO, ZILCH, ZIP.  NO.  Profit sharing in industry is RARE and when it was instituted it was a product of UNION BARGAINING.
 
These are my summations but if you go there and watch it I am sure even a "Caveman" (of course not any West pilot or APA union pilot) will understand. Scope and profit sharing are not attainable and the future of collective bargaining strength is below that of a journey to space on last weeks Virgin Space ship.
 
Welcome to Jurassic Park!!
 
Oh, and don't forget to give me the BIG minus signs now for simply TELLING THE TRUTH.

 

[A320 Driver]

He also said that the F/A contract was above industry standard and that the proposal they will put on the table for the pilots will be along the same lines but without profit sharing.
 
We shall see.

 

[Pi brat]

I also believe he said that the F/A's arbitration clause called for industry average guidance for the arbitrator, while ours said cost neutral. Yeah, I'm sure he does feel good about it!

 

[end_of_alpa]

He also said that the F/A contract was above industry standard and that the proposal they will put on the table for the pilots will be along the same lines but without profit sharing.
 
We shall see.

YEP.

 

[end_of_alpa]

I also believe he said that the F/A's arbitration clause called for industry average guidance for the arbitrator, while ours said cost neutral. Yeah, I'm sure he does feel good about it!

YEP.  Looks like 2019+.