2014 Pilot Discussion

[traderjake]

The price of beef is at all time highs, are you going to include that in your cost neutral analysis too?

 

[end_of_alpa]

 
 I agree.  The best one can hope for is that "you get what you negotiate."  APA negotiated a TA that provides for a cost neutral JCBA without profi sharing.  That's what we will get unless the APA caves on the additional 5 seats for express.
 
Should we hold the line and fall on our swords over the 5 seats, and thereby save face with United and Delta pilot groups?  Forgetting for a moment our "obligation" to negotiate for United and Delta by holding the line on scope, what exactly is the impact of allowing the company to cram in those extra seats and increase the "sardine can" factor?  Why is 76 seats, and not 73 or 74, the "magic" number?
 
The APA needs to do a real analysis of how the company's demand for relief on these seats actually impacts the jobs of its members, and forget about protecting United and Delta pilots.  If indeed it is necessary to refuse the extra seats, then we need to accept the fact of an arbitrated cost-neutral JCBA and get over it.

I got a "-4" for that one yet....YOU GET IT!!  (Not a personal slight, BTW Padre)  And it isn't really that complicated.  Blame the Company for what WE VOTED FOR????
 
The West pilots will fit right in over at the APA along with Dan and the East ALPA crowd.
 
The APA would only be writing an episode of "analyze this" for TV...at best.

 

[end_of_alpa]

Should the cost of fuel be factored into the 'cost neutral' equation? Should APA insist that the cost of fuel be considerd in the equation? What is the exact cost of the MTA/MOU anyway? Who makes that determination? Is it time for an updated cost analysis to be performed by a neutral third party? Is there such a thing as a "positive force majeure" in the form of lower than anticiapted fuel costs which render certain assumptions in the MTA unrealistic and works in favor of labor for a change?

'84

You certainly could make that argument but ultimately it will come to the "neutral" third party...aka Arbitration.  The company has a financial number in the MOU that limits their exposure and the cost analysis presented by both sides will determine what is excepted.  I can see that the downside exposure for the company is minimal.

 

[traderjake]

The West pilots will fit right in over at the APA along with Dan and the East ALPA crowd.

 
If only the American pilots would vote in USAPA as our CBA  we could get everything we want!

 

[Piedmont1984]

You certainly could make that argument but ultimately it will come to the "neutral" third party...aka Arbitration.  The company has a financial number in the MOU that limits their exposure and the cost analysis presented by both sides will determine what is excepted.  I can see that the downside exposure for the company is minimal.

I guess that's what I am asking. The MOU has no number (total number) that I can find. It simply refers to the MTA. The MTA has no total number that I can find either. What will the arbs use? Can fuel costs be used to offset salary costs? Does anything prevent the union from arguing such to the arbs?

And yes Trader, if the cost of beef affects per diem rates then I say put it out there.

If it goes to arbitration then the union should argue everything, including the kitchen sink. The arbitration panel will certainly be aware of four factors which argue against, or bring into question this cost neutral provision. First, the unanticipated drop in oil, which I hope continues. Second, the record profits which AAL is enjoying, which I hope continues. Third, the large bonuses which the execs are enjoying (good for them, how about us). Fourth, the record of rhetoric on the part of management these past few years which clearly implied that the merger would provide the economy of scale to offer pay and benefits commensurate with DAL and UAL.

The union should do all it can to make the prospect of arbitration just like opening a box of chocolates, for both sides.

 

[traderjake]

If it goes to arbitration then the union should argue everything, including the kitchen sink.

 
I see you still support the East seniority arbitration strategy.

 

[A320 Driver]

I agree.  The best one can hope for is that "you get what you negotiate."
The APA needs to do a real analysis of how the company's demand for relief on these seats actually impacts the jobs of its members, and forget about protecting United and Delta pilots.  If indeed it is necessary to refuse the extra seats, then we need to accept the fact of an arbitrated cost-neutral JCBA and get over it.

The company negotiated 76 seats. By the tone of your post, I gather you are in favor of relaxing our scope...again.

 

[im back..!!]

The price of beef is at all time highs, are you going to include that in your cost neutral analysis too?

I don't believe catering is a generally accepted factor in airline cost analysis. Usually labor, fuel top the list of variables that are factored against planned versus actual costs.

Oh, but if your just being a "Smartazz" as usual, then..... Well, just be you traitor..!

Nice vaca bidding by the way.... ;-)

 

[traderjake]

Don't tell me you still take anything said here seriously.
 
Let me guess, you buddy bid with me.     

 

[nycbusdriver]

The company negotiated 76 seats. By the tone of your post, I gather you are in favor of relaxing our scope...again.

 
I'm in favor of analyzing exactly how those five seats would affect the APA pilots, and not be bent on "defending the profession" in a quixotic quest to show everybody just how pigheaded, possibly stupid, we can be.
 
How many APA pilots will be furloughed, or upgrades delayed, by relaxing those 5 seats?  Or, with more pax arriving in our hubs via those seats, how many new jobs for the APA will it create taking those people to their destinations on mainline planes?  (Did anyone ever even think of that?)
 
Yes, the company negotiated 76 seats.  Now they want 81, and the pilots want more money.  We are again in negotiations.  What exactly do you think negotiations are?  The company understands it perfectly.  It seems the pilots don't quite get the concept.

 

[A320 Driver]

I think many of us get the concept. Just tired of giving away just when things are starting to turn around. 81 seats today...E190s tomorrow.

 

[Beancounter]

So I take it the "logic" is because the company made record profits it's their responsibility to reopen the contract and give us ....MORE?  It's a "smackdown" when they WON'T???  You think the APA has a "handle" on this.  Doesn't this refrain even SOUND familiar?  The APA is singing the same notes they always sing.  Just like ALPA.
 
I hate to break it to you but.....NO WAIT....LET'S JUST WATCH THE SHOW, I DON'T WANT TO ISSUE A SPOILER ALERT.

Well.... I see all these negative scores, but....... for once I have to agree with end. Can't believe I just said that. Parker/Doug doesn't have to give us more, we already approved an MOU. The APA underestimated Doug and his/our team. No big surprise. How long have we known him and as a pilot group we still underestimate him, all the time. In the end, we benefit though, because our company will be successful. Sure would be nice to be able to deposit some of this success though........ Oh well.

Bean

 

[luvthe9]

From the MIA APA......maybe they are getting the idea.





Hi Guys and Gals,
I want to share what I know and attempt to get the bases temperature on where you want to go.
The company has told APA that they will give us an offer around November 12th. Might be a day or two either side of that. I’m bracing for the initial offer to have a five seat Scope ask. I would like to think that since the Board of Directors called Mr. Parker over to our headquarters and told him in no uncertain terms that Scope gives are a deal killer, that he wouldn’t bother asking. Unfortunately, I’m not feeling that he will take our advice, at least initially. I think he and Mr. Kirby are trying to frame this like we’re the bad guys, since he’s only asking for five seats and all… My belief is that the BOD will stand united on Scope.
What happens next is anyone’s guess, but based on everything the company has and has not done up to today, I am not optimistic that they are willing to bring us up to Industry Standard. My hunch is they will throw a pretty decent pay raise at us and try and close the deal. I cannot accept just pay. I won’t list everything, but in my mind, you deserve significant improvements not only in pay, but LOS, Retiree Medical, Active Medical costs, Reserve, Minimum Day, LTD, Sick and Vacation! You, through your union and your own hard work, have made this new airline possible. The profits are rolling in. You are thanked, but what you really need is your contract fixed. In my mind, a boss who really appreciates you will compensate you at least what others doing the same job at his competitors are being compensated.
Maybe I will be happily surprised? If it’s not a fair deal, I will not vote to send it on to you. I know a few of you would like to have a vote on anything, but haven’t we had enough of our leadership sending crap to us and saying ‘hey I know it’s a lousy deal, but I wanted you to decide for yourself’? Instead of locking in a deal that doesn’t address every inadequate section of our contract, I would rather send it to arbitration and wait for our pay raise in just over 13 months. If that happens, you can thank your senior management team at AAG.
Some on the BOD have advocated letting Mr. Kirby come and make another sales pitch on your dime. I am strongly opposed to wasting any more time with cheap talk. I, along with the entire BOD, have already met face to face with Mr. Parker. That was less than a month ago. The Board made it crystal clear that we will not give on Scope AND that we expect Industry Standard or better in ALL parts of our contract. This is what Mr. Parker and Mr. Kirby had promised us in exchange for our backing them to lead the new American Airlines.
So, bottom line is by the end of next week you will know the direction Mr. Parker and Mr. Kirby are taking. Their chance to keep us doing more than required is a closing window of opportunity. They can reward your Herculean efforts over the last decade or they can snub you and your family. Again, I’m praying for the former, but bracing for the worst.
I want your input. I will try and do what you, the membership want. Call, email, and send sound offs. Thank you for trusting me to represent you.
Respectfully,
Tom Gallagher



.

 

[end_of_alpa]

Well.... I see all these negative scores, but....... for once I have to agree with end. Can't believe I just said that. Parker/Doug doesn't have to give us more, we already approved an MOU. The APA underestimated Doug and his/our team. No big surprise. How long have we known him and as a pilot group we still underestimate him, all the time. In the end, we benefit though, because our company will be successful. Sure would be nice to be able to deposit some of this success though........ Oh well.
Bean

Yeah...I went to.....wait for it....-6!

Funny you should mention deposit some of this success. That thinking is the pie in the sky that was Typical ALPA/APA.

I see your point, though.

 

[end_of_alpa]

From the MIA APA......maybe they are getting the idea.
Hi Guys and Gals,
I want to share what I know and attempt to get the bases temperature on where you want to go.
The company has told APA that they will give us an offer around November 12th. Might be a day or two either side of that. I’m bracing for the initial offer to have a five seat Scope ask. I would like to think that since the Board of Directors called Mr. Parker over to our headquarters and told him in no uncertain terms that Scope gives are a deal killer, that he wouldn’t bother asking. Unfortunately, I’m not feeling that he will take our advice, at least initially. I think he and Mr. Kirby are trying to frame this like we’re the bad guys, since he’s only asking for five seats and all… My belief is that the BOD will stand united on Scope.
What happens next is anyone’s guess, but based on everything the company has and has not done up to today, I am not optimistic that they are willing to bring us up to Industry Standard. My hunch is they will throw a pretty decent pay raise at us and try and close the deal. I cannot accept just pay. I won’t list everything, but in my mind, you deserve significant improvements not only in pay, but LOS, Retiree Medical, Active Medical costs, Reserve, Minimum Day, LTD, Sick and Vacation! You, through your union and your own hard work, have made this new airline possible. The profits are rolling in. You are thanked, but what you really need is your contract fixed. In my mind, a boss who really appreciates you will compensate you at least what others doing the same job at his competitors are being compensated.
Maybe I will be happily surprised? If it’s not a fair deal, I will not vote to send it on to you. I know a few of you would like to have a vote on anything, but haven’t we had enough of our leadership sending crap to us and saying ‘hey I know it’s a lousy deal, but I wanted you to decide for yourself’? Instead of locking in a deal that doesn’t address every inadequate section of our contract, I would rather send it to arbitration and wait for our pay raise in just over 13 months. If that happens, you can thank your senior management team at AAG.
Some on the BOD have advocated letting Mr. Kirby come and make another sales pitch on your dime. I am strongly opposed to wasting any more time with cheap talk. I, along with the entire BOD, have already met face to face with Mr. Parker. That was less than a month ago. The Board made it crystal clear that we will not give on Scope AND that we expect Industry Standard or better in ALL parts of our contract. This is what Mr. Parker and Mr. Kirby had promised us in exchange for our backing them to lead the new American Airlines.
So, bottom line is by the end of next week you will know the direction Mr. Parker and Mr. Kirby are taking. Their chance to keep us doing more than required is a closing window of opportunity. They can reward your Herculean efforts over the last decade or they can snub you and your family. Again, I’m praying for the former, but bracing for the worst.
I want your input. I will try and do what you, the membership want. Call, email, and send sound offs. Thank you for trusting me to represent you.
Respectfully,
Tom Gallagher
.

Hey! There it is, and I didn't say it! The "leadership" sending you crap and letting you decide (while WE hold the line...right).

So, then the leadership says it's the best that we can get and you vote for it, all the while selling everyones seniority down the toilet.

APA and ALPA. Cattle for the slaughter. The new contract negotiation learned from the new West pilot leadership. "Hey, we'll just arbitrate every provision of the contract" except the scope where new hires can fly aircraft better and cheaper than we can. They have an ATP/first class medical/type rating.

Parker and Kirby will be Athe Airline powerhouse BECAUSE of the lack of leadership and unity here at the New American. Looking for more negative votes on this one.

Why? Because when 2019 comes around I get to show you what I have already predicted today....union unity meltdown.