2014 Pilot Discussion

[Pi brat]

Recall rights are not a job and how many of those other airlines were in Chapter 11 facing possible Chapter7?

Possible. Did we liquidate you jack wagon? NO! Belittle and denigrate your contribution and career, but don't do it for the rest of us.

 

[Pi brat]

You can tell yourself whatever you want over and over again, it still won't make it true. Without the merger US was gone. That doesn't mean America West didn't need the merger, it did. If you face the reality I think you'll better understand why the Nic came out like it did. The agreed to way of integration was career expectations. What did you think the list was going to look like? I think US brought tremendous value to the merger with AWA and we wouldn't be in the current merger if the first hadn't happened. Good for us all in the long run.
Bean

Bean, have read Mr. Bloch' s award in the dispatcher arbitration? It's like he and Nicolau were talking about two different mergers. Nicolau screwed it up, there's no way around it.

 

[Claxon]

Bean, have read Mr. Bloch' s award in the dispatcher arbitration? It's like he and Nicolau were talking about two different mergers. Nicolau screwed it up, there's no way around it.

 
http://jamhoff.com/PDFs/ArbitratorDecisionAward.pdf

 

[Beancounter]

Please refer to Addington 9th Circuit Court ruling, the declaratory judgment ruling and the DFR 2 ruling.  You lost your ass in all the court cases, get over it. 
 
Your ten years of stagnation is tantamount to Darwin's theory.

I wasn't involved with the court case.

I sense some angst. Having trouble with the APA?

Bean

 

[Beancounter]

Bean, have read Mr. Bloch' s award in the dispatcher arbitration? It's like he and Nicolau were talking about two different mergers. Nicolau screwed it up, there's no way around it.

Hmmmmmm. Who do i side with? The third party impartial arbitration that i dont fully agree with or the guy that wanted to staple the other pilot group for his own gain? I'll have to get back to you on that.

Bean

 

[EastUS1]

Hmmmmmm. Who do i side with?

 
I can't answer that for you. I'll always suggest siding with the man you see in your shaving mirror. His notions of right versus wrong, and his opinion's the only one that should really matter to you.
 
I wish none of this sorry mess had ever happened, but I've never been overly lucky at wishing wells, and that's previously covered by noting that reality hasn't a damn thing to do with what we'd wish, hope or "expect" anyway. 😉
 
East-West rants aside: I hope all's well with you and yours Bean.

 

[mrbreeze]

You can tell yourself whatever you want over and over again, it still won't make it true. Without the merger US was gone. That doesn't mean America West didn't need the merger, it did. If you face the reality I think you'll better understand why the Nic came out like it did. The agreed to way of integration was career expectations. What did you think the list was going to look like? I think US brought tremendous value to the merger with AWA and we wouldn't be in the current merger if the first hadn't happened. Good for us all in the long run.

Bean

Hi Bean,
Hope all is well.
 
This thought that USAir would liquidate within 2 weeks was stated by Wakefield (uncalled for in my opinion). However, don't you think he had been talking to AWA for several months to a year before the merger. Don't you think he felt that the merger was going through and liquidation for USAir, along with BK for AWA was not going to happen.
 
My point is that it didn't just happen overnight and the thought that USAir was falling over the edge of the cliff was not what was actually going on at the time. They had a plan in place for several months. The statement that USAir was about to liquidate depends on the context. 
 
breeze

 

[Claxon]

Pilots Union status quo.
 
"MEC Chairman’s Message  (US Airways pilots)
 
February 8, 2008
 
This is MEC Chairman Jack Stephan with a chairman’s message to the pilots for Friday,
 
February 08, 2008.
 
After nine days of talks between the US Airways and America West Steering Committees, the America West contingent has chosen to stand down talks. At this time they are not prepared to address seniority implementation issues, specifically, mitigating the damages caused by the Nicolau Award.
 
Recall that we met to determine if we had enough common ground between us on important issues to come up with a comprehensive counterproposal for both MECs to review. As we told you, this counterproposal would have to adequately address not only all open JNC issues, but more importantly for the AAA pilots, pay parity and seniority protection. We came to the neutral site at Wye River, MD with these goals in mind, and within these goals we developed certain thresholds needing to be achieved for the benefit of the US Airways pilots. Despite what you may have heard or read, none of that changed during the meeting.
 
While we respect what the AWA pilots were there to accomplish, the US Airways MEC’s position remains the same and our MEC’s Steering Committee members did not compromise that position. We never wavered from our goal of protecting you from the Nicolau Award, and our threshold for meeting those goals never changed.
 
I’ll be calling the MEC into session for a special meeting next week. While there is no comprehensive counterproposal to bring back to the MEC, they'll receive a briefing on the process, and I plan to add two other items to the agenda: developing a distribution methodology for 2007 Profit Sharing and Stock Options and to review an agreement extending the timeframe for filing disputes concerning flow-through issues.
 
The MEC will now review our options. Keep in mind that the odds of any plan we develop succeeding are greatly diminished by members of this MEC continuing to cower behind their fear of failure and seeking to sabotage any process we elect to pursue. You can see that all of the noise and accusations coming out of PHL Council 41 about the work of our Steering Committee was unfounded and disingenuous. When it came time to meet directly with our AWA counterparts, we did exactly what we said we would, AAA pilots working with AWA pilots trying to mitigate the damages of the Nicolau Award.
 
Excuses and alibis will not replace leadership. We made a promise, and we kept it. There was no cramdown, no end-run deal, no deal chasing and no back room conspiracies. I hope you did not fall for these contrived ideas spread in order to try and scare you. The majority of this MEC and your MEC officers are not afraid of failure.
 
We said we were going to look under every stone to find solutions and we meant it. My only fear is that some of our MEC fear the search may actually produce something that would require
them to lead rather than criticize. I can tell you that the majority of your MEC was willing to continue the search. Although this process has not worked so far, we are no worse off for engaging in the exercise.
You would have been extremely proud of our team of pilots who met at the Wye River Conference Center. These are men of honor and integrity and they are most importantly, men of their word. Their commitment to the process and to you was rock solid. Threats and intimidation attempts by some minority disenchanted MEC members and paper tigers did not sway these men of honor from pursuing the direction that the majority of the MEC had set. They did their best trying to reach a solution to the Nicolau Award. At this time the AWA pilots are unwilling to address our seniority concerns. Again, we are no worse off for having engaged in this process. We remain right where we started and that is in separate operations with the West.
 
I thank you for your patience during the past few weeks. I know it’s been difficult. There will be other options at our disposal after the MEC gets the chance to strategize internally next week. While conditions and opportunities may change, the goal has not and our threshold for success has not. Our mission remains the same, to protect you from the damages caused by the Nicolau Award.
 
Thank you for listening. As always, fly safe and continue to look out for each other."

 

[Pi brat]

Hmmmmmm. Who do i side with? The third party impartial arbitration that i dont fully agree with or the guy that wanted to staple the other pilot group for his own gain? I'll have to get back to you on that.

Bean

What are you talking about? Bloch wanted to staple a group for his own gain?

 

[snapthis]

I wasn't involved with the court case.

I sense some angst. Having trouble with the APA?

Bean

 
Most likely.

Hmmmmmm. Who do i side with? The third party impartial arbitration that i dont fully agree with or the guy that wanted to staple the other pilot group for his own gain? I'll have to get back to you on that.

Bean

I think it was made clear to Roghair, whenever sitting across the table from Usapians, they had better not give them wiggle room to cheat another agreement.
 
Sorry Tony, I don't care if you like it or not, the list was fair. Eat it.
 
Arbitrator stands by controversial list
by Dawn Gilbertson - Apr. 26, 2009 12:00 AM
The Arizona Republic

His name is a household name, often used in vain, in the pilot ranks at US Airways.

George Nicolau, an 84-year-old New York attorney best known for his longtime role as Major League Baseball's arbitrator, is the federal arbitrator who two years ago issued the merged seniority list that bitterly divided the 5,000 pilots of the former America West Airlines and the old US Airways.
The list is the unofficial centerpiece of a trial that begins in federal court in Phoenix Tuesday, pitting the two pilot groups against each other four years after the merger was announced.

 

Nicolau won't be there and says he doesn't even know what the lawsuit is about.
But he says he does know this: The list was fair.
In the decision, he rejected US Airways pilots' requests for a seniority system based on date of hire, which would have strongly favored them given America West's younger age. He also weighed the career expectations of both sides and concluded that the financial future of US Airways was "not comparable to or as bright as that of America West" at the time of the merger.
He came up with a blended seniority list that put several hundred of US Airways' most senior pilots, those flying the prized international flights, at the top and ranked the rest according to a ratio based on their status at the time of the merger. US Airways pilots on furlough at the time of the merger were put at the bottom, a major sore point. One of two pilots from outside America West/US Airways on the panel issued a dissenting opinion on that point but otherwise praised Nicolau's rationale.
"I still believe it's the right one," Nicolau said of the list.
He was the only voting member of a three-member Air Line Pilots Association arbitration board that heard the case in late 2006.
Nicolau said there were plenty of "fusses" about some of his Major League Baseball decisions, but none lingered as long as the US Airways decision

Read more: http://www.azcentral.com/arizonarepublic/business/articles/2009/04/26/20090426biz-usairwayspilots0426side.html#ixzz38GKwqAaX

 

 

[mrbreeze]

Pilots Union status quo.
 
"MEC Chairman’s Message  (US Airways pilots)
 
February 8, 2008
 
This is MEC Chairman Jack Stephan with a chairman’s message to the pilots for Friday,
 
February 08, 2008.
 
After nine days of talks between the US Airways and America West Steering Committees, the America West contingent has chosen to stand down talks. At this time they are not prepared to address seniority implementation issues, specifically, mitigating the damages caused by the Nicolau Award.
 
Recall that we met to determine if we had enough common ground between us on important issues to come up with a comprehensive counterproposal for both MECs to review. As we told you, this counterproposal would have to adequately address not only all open JNC issues, but more importantly for the AAA pilots, pay parity and seniority protection. We came to the neutral site at Wye River, MD with these goals in mind, and within these goals we developed certain thresholds needing to be achieved for the benefit of the US Airways pilots. Despite what you may have heard or read, none of that changed during the meeting.
 
While we respect what the AWA pilots were there to accomplish, the US Airways MEC’s position remains the same and our MEC’s Steering Committee members did not compromise that position. We never wavered from our goal of protecting you from the Nicolau Award, and our threshold for meeting those goals never changed.
 
I’ll be calling the MEC into session for a special meeting next week. While there is no comprehensive counterproposal to bring back to the MEC, they'll receive a briefing on the process, and I plan to add two other items to the agenda: developing a distribution methodology for 2007 Profit Sharing and Stock Options and to review an agreement extending the timeframe for filing disputes concerning flow-through issues.
 
The MEC will now review our options. Keep in mind that the odds of any plan we develop succeeding are greatly diminished by members of this MEC continuing to cower behind their fear of failure and seeking to sabotage any process we elect to pursue. You can see that all of the noise and accusations coming out of PHL Council 41 about the work of our Steering Committee was unfounded and disingenuous. When it came time to meet directly with our AWA counterparts, we did exactly what we said we would, AAA pilots working with AWA pilots trying to mitigate the damages of the Nicolau Award.
 
Excuses and alibis will not replace leadership. We made a promise, and we kept it. There was no cramdown, no end-run deal, no deal chasing and no back room conspiracies. I hope you did not fall for these contrived ideas spread in order to try and scare you. The majority of this MEC and your MEC officers are not afraid of failure.
 
We said we were going to look under every stone to find solutions and we meant it. My only fear is that some of our MEC fear the search may actually produce something that would require
them to lead rather than criticize. I can tell you that the majority of your MEC was willing to continue the search. Although this process has not worked so far, we are no worse off for engaging in the exercise.
You would have been extremely proud of our team of pilots who met at the Wye River Conference Center. These are men of honor and integrity and they are most importantly, men of their word. Their commitment to the process and to you was rock solid. Threats and intimidation attempts by some minority disenchanted MEC members and paper tigers did not sway these men of honor from pursuing the direction that the majority of the MEC had set. They did their best trying to reach a solution to the Nicolau Award. At this time the AWA pilots are unwilling to address our seniority concerns. Again, we are no worse off for having engaged in this process. We remain right where we started and that is in separate operations with the West.
 
I thank you for your patience during the past few weeks. I know it’s been difficult. There will be other options at our disposal after the MEC gets the chance to strategize internally next week. While conditions and opportunities may change, the goal has not and our threshold for success has not. Our mission remains the same, to protect you from the damages caused by the Nicolau Award.
 
Thank you for listening. As always, fly safe and continue to look out for each other."

About 6 months ago I was commuting home. I had a window seat, and this guy took a seat on the isle next to me. I noticed that he was carrying a tote bag with "ALPA MEC" engraved on it. We started talking and I found that it was Jack Stephan. I had never met the guy but found that he was a stand up guy. We had a couple of drinks and I really enjoyed talking to him. I think he had some big cajones to step into the fray when he did and tried to do the right thing. Unfortunately, he was stricken with some sort of eye disease and retired on medical several years ago, mostly blind in one eye. As far as the AA merger, his main concern is just what kind of deal Parker and the APA have agreed to for the future.
 
I found him to be a very personable guy.
breeze

 

[Pi brat]

Just a snippet for you Bean, as I'm guessing you won't read it. It would crumble the foundation of your beliefs.
 
"However, West’s claim that U.S. Airways emerged from bankruptcy “only because it [was] acquired by a stronger enterprise” is reflected neither in the KPMG audit report (cited by West) nor in any other portion of the evidence. Instead, each carrier had something to contribute. Airways, for example, was much larger. It served almost twice as many destinations as AWA and carried twice the number of passengers. Airways has substantially more cash on hand, following the merger agreement."
 
As a beancounter, I'm guessing you know who KPMG is?

 

[Pi brat]

 
Most likely.
I think it was made clear to Roghair that whenever sitting across the table from Usapians, they had better not give them wiggle room to cheat another agreement.
 
Sorry Tony, I don't care if you like it or not, the list was fair. Eat it.
 
Arbitrator stands by controversial list
by Dawn Gilbertson - Apr. 26, 2009 12:00 AM
The Arizona Republic

His name is a household name, often used in vain, in the pilot ranks at US Airways.

George Nicolau, an 84-year-old New York attorney best known for his longtime role as Major League Baseball's arbitrator, is the federal arbitrator who two years ago issued the merged seniority list that bitterly divided the 5,000 pilots of the former America West Airlines and the old US Airways.
The list is the unofficial centerpiece of a trial that begins in federal court in Phoenix Tuesday, pitting the two pilot groups against each other four years after the merger was announced.

 

Nicolau won't be there and says he doesn't even know what the lawsuit is about.
But he says he does know this: The list was fair.
In the decision, he rejected US Airways pilots' requests for a seniority system based on date of hire, which would have strongly favored them given America West's younger age. He also weighed the career expectations of both sides and concluded that the financial future of US Airways was "not comparable to or as bright as that of America West" at the time of the merger.
He came up with a blended seniority list that put several hundred of US Airways' most senior pilots, those flying the prized international flights, at the top and ranked the rest according to a ratio based on their status at the time of the merger. US Airways pilots on furlough at the time of the merger were put at the bottom, a major sore point. One of two pilots from outside America West/US Airways on the panel issued a dissenting opinion on that point but otherwise praised Nicolau's rationale.
"I still believe it's the right one," Nicolau said of the list.
He was the only voting member of a three-member Air Line Pilots Association arbitration board that heard the case in late 2006.
Nicolau said there were plenty of "fusses" about some of his Major League Baseball decisions, but none lingered as long as the US Airways decision

Read more: http://www.azcentral.com/arizonarepublic/business/articles/2009/04/26/20090426biz-usairwayspilots0426side.html#ixzz38GKwqAaX

 

Hey AW, I heard you made a really, really great impression on Captain Hale. Keep up the good work!

 

[Claxon]

another america west pilots produced video.  The desert is a great place to keep these folks.
 
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x46eyu_usapa-vs-alpa_news#.UXS78PW8z0o

 

[snapthis]

Hey AW, I heard you made a really, really great impression on Captain Hal.. Keep up the good work!

 
I know, all in all a good meeting. I know, because I was there.
 
Remember, he has an open door policy, even for Westies.
 
That's a nice change.