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2014 Pilot Discussion

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algflyr said:
Did anyone expect anything different from the APA? They are not new to this game and know how to play it very well. They will keep this up until an agreement is reached (and not in public), or a judge compels them to arbitrate. I think you will then see an agreement forged on how this will finally play out...

I personally don't have an issue with the West pilots having a committee to negotiate for their separate seniority list at US Airways in the SLI with American as long as they play by the rules of engagement. I don't think they can put forth the Nic anymore that the East can put forth a DOH combined list.

We will have 3 lists merged together on the merits of each list and what each has at the time of this merger. 

I think the West should have West pilots defending their list and the positions they bring. I think they should be able to do that under USAPA to be legal under the NMB rules. Maybe some basic language like the APA tried to introduce so their committee cannot be influenced by USAPA East. But to try and introduce the NIC would not be in their scope as that would be trying to negotiate for the East. The Nic was never a legal list as we never attained a joint contract, and now that cannot happen. To try and use that would ignore the terms of the TA reached that produced the Nic in the first place. So the West must present their list and have it integrated on how they best see their pilots benefiting from the integration of the 3 lists. Be that DOH or status position, it's up to them.

And the East will be responsible for presenting their list and desires of methodology for integration. They cannot present a combined DOH East/West list as that would be negotiation for the West. So the East will fight for only their list, be it DOH, status or something else.

And of course the APA will defend their list how they see fit. But they will be responsible only for their list, not those of USAirways...

Just my views...
X points for yeast of service, Y for relative position, Z for widebody career expectations. X+Y+Z = your new seniority. Now let's talk about fences. Board fence, high tensil, of woven wire? How about........electric!
 
nevergiveup said:
X points for yeast of service, Y for relative position, Z for widebody career expectations. X+Y+Z = your new seniority. Now let's talk about fences. Board fence, high tensil, of woven wire? How about........electric!
 
 
Yes, and provide free Liberty ties as a consolation to all who also wanted credit for their "rightful" Nic position.  
 
Mach85ER said:
I thought we went over the lack of AA attrition. No matter how many times you keep repeating it, it's not going to change the fact that AA has little attrition during the SLI process. You are a hysterical fool to keep suggesting otherwise.
 
Another point of your idiotic thought and keyboard Tourrettes Syndrome keyboard affliction, AirCal was a relative merge that ended up screwing nAAtive AA'ers after management completely dismantled the Aircal system. Reno came along and APA wasn't going to give the most senior Reno Captain a AA left seat when his DOH was less (1992) than most AA returning furloughees. AA management completely dismantled the Reno system too. What would you have done with Reno? What would you have done with TWA given the track record. Are you aware that AA FO's were stagnated from NB upgrades for several years as a result of TWA pilots moving off their dismantled routes and onto longtime AA routes. If APA gave TWA DOH or even a relative merge, they would be in 1200 slots out of 3500 CA positions with ZERO of their remaining TWA route system. Does that make sense to you?
 
AW/US/AA is a completely different animal and dead in the future if there is a major flying reduction like the AMR idiots did in the past.



 
Do the board a favor and get some accuracy and stop acting like a little girl wondering when her first Midol is going to kick in and settle her angst.

Do us a favor and don't try to justify your actions in previous mergers. Doesn't help explain anything. From my numbers AA has some good attrition over the next 5 years they lose 867 pilots. Not to schabby..

Usair loses 1046... So I agree with Luv9.... You boys just dig in and fight this out. It has all the tell tale signs of a long drawn out process. good for most involved....
 
AAviator said:
This was just forwarded to me....
Seniority Integration Protocol: The Facts

You may have seen APA's seniority integration protocol proposal last week and a subsequent USAPA Merger Committee blast accusing the APA Seniority Integration Committee of blindsiding them with a "regressive" proposal. Although we have been patient in an attempt to forge an acceptable agreement, it is now time to set the record straight on some of the misrepresentations contained in the USAPA Merger Committee blast.

To be blunt, USAPA's version of events is fiction. USAPA leadership specifically and directly solicited this latest protocol proposal from the Seniority Integration Committee. USAPA's merger counsel was also briefed on the likely content of the protocol document several days before receipt. USAPA's abject failure to communicate these facts erodes the very foundation of trust necessary for any further negotiations. It is now apparent to us, just as it was to Judge Silver in the Addington v. USAPA DFR decision, that USAPA is using these tactics, including reneging on its bargain under the MOU and litigating the McCaskill-Bond process in court, with the express goal of delaying the NMB single-carrier finding.

Last week, before we passed our latest protocol proposal, APA Vice President FO Neil Roghair was invited to speak at USAPA domicile meetings in Charlotte and Philadelphia. The APA talking points were simple:

APA wants a smooth and amicable integration with the pilots of US Airways.
APA is committed to the process that we all agreed to and ratified in the MOU.
APA will take its duty of fair representation to all American Airlines pilots seriously.
FO Roghair communicated that the protocol agreement for seniority integration should be complete and that the only major barriers have been superfluous and unacceptable USAPA demands, including:

Obligating APA to pay post-single carrier USAPA bills, including costs of its current headquarters
Maintaining USAPA's independent operation authority throughout the JCBA and SLI process
Paying for ongoing litigation expenses in Addington and any subsequent DFR cases
Recognizing USAPA as a party to the protocol agreement even after USAPA ceases to be the certified bargaining representative (contrary to its own position in the Addington litigation, the judge's ruling in that case and the specific language of the MOU)
These are not commitments APA is willing to entertain and are what brought seniority protocol negotiations to a halt.

As FO Roghair stated, APA does not take its duty of fair representation lightly. Contrary to USAPA's assertions otherwise, and at their suggestion, APA has proposed that the West pilots be afforded the opportunity to petition a neutral arbitrator for the right to a separate and independent merger committee in the seniority integration process. USAPA, the company and APA would have the right to object or support a West merger committee. The arbitrator would then rule on the issue, and the process would move forward based on the arbitrator's final and binding decision on the West merger committee's status.

At the CLT meeting, a member of the USAPA Merger Committee briefed those in attendance on why the committee found the prospect of a separate West merger committee acceptable. And, upon hearing APA's proposal, the USAPA secretary-treasurer remarked that this proposal came directly from USAPA. This highlights that the USAPA Merger Committee's blast, dated June 20, 2014, is entirely inconsistent with statements made by USAPA leadership to APA.

The USAPA national officers specifically requested that APA disregard the USAPA transition and settlement proposals and present a "seniority protocol only" proposal to USAPA so that we can all point to a seniority integration proposal that represents the path forward. Thus, we made our protocol proposal last week at USAPA's specific request. It could not have surprised them.

Regardless of the circumstances that resulted in APA's passing the protocol document, the proposal was fully consistent with requests and understandings agreed to by USAPA's leadership and communicated to pilots at the CLT and PHL meetings. It meets every legitimate "ask" from USAPA in the seniority protocol. Among other things:

The proposal guaranteed that the USAPA Merger Committee would continue in its current form after APA becomes the single bargaining representative. The USAPA committee would remain completely autonomous, and APA would formally agree not to interfere with its staffing, decision-making, operations or funding. Who gives direction to that committee is not within APA's control.
The proposal accepted USAPA's position that APA not have the unilateral right to appoint a West merger committee but the West pilots be required to seek representation through final and binding arbitration.
The proposal accepted USAPA's procedure for the selection of the seniority Arbitration Board.
While the proposal provided that the company and APA would be the only parties to the protocol after APA becomes the single bargaining representative which is consistent with the RLA and the duty of fair representation and has always been APA's position APA would formally commit that it had no legal authority to make any modification to the protected status of the USAPA Merger Committee.
Nothing in the APA proposal was a surprise to USAPA or its merger counsel. The only written additions to our latest proposal were to codify the previous understanding that USAPA would drop its litigation in federal district court asking for an alternative process to MOU paragraph 10 and to provide that USAPA drop its opposition at the NMB to the single-carrier determination.

The day after our counsel transmitted the protocol proposal, the USAPA Merger Committee released its blast to USAPA membership, in which they claimed our proposal blindsided them and was unacceptable and regressive. They listed five points of deep concern.

Their first four points object to APA suggesting that everyone follow the process spelled out in MOU paragraph 10 the process approved 11-0 by the USAPA Board of Pilot Representatives and ratified by three-quarters of the USAPA membership. USAPA's position that complying with a signed agreement (the MOU) is somehow optional can only be described as beyond the pale. At no time did USAPA suggest that any other party to the MOU could unilaterally disregard its provisions.
The fifth point of objection is that APA is asserting the right to change and control their merger committee. That is false. The very premise of our protocol proposal is that the merger committees, including specifically the USAPA Merger Committee, will be autonomous and independent after the certification of a single bargaining representative. While APA will be the bargaining representative and will not formally agree to USAPA party status, USAPA may continue as an organization, with a board and national officers, albeit at their own expense.
This seniority integration process will be difficult and complex. APA is deeply committed and obligated to an autonomous USAPA Merger Committee. APA also has a duty to guarantee a process that will give the West pilots a fair opportunity to make their case in arbitration.

The APA Seniority Integration Committee made our proposal public for simple reasons. The proposal reflects every commitment we have made to USAPA with regard to the seniority integration process and contradicts false assertions being made by USAPA in an effort to delay a single-carrier finding by the NMB. It is time to agree to a protocol before this affects the ability of APA and USAPA to move forward in areas of mutual interest, such as the JCBA.

Please forward this email to every US Airways pilot you know and tell them that APA is committed to the fair process that we all signed up for.
USAPA is made up with almost all Demagogues who mislead the pilots, provide sentence fragments in their communications that misrepresent the truth, and hide the truth through the use of "closed session" meetings.
 
I cannot and will not support a union or any group that does not have character. And, I'm going to continue to tell anybody who will listen that the BPR's minions are the ones who are the "scared chickens that once again want to ruin it for the rest of the chicken coup."
 
Finally, what's it say about those who support others that lack character and integrity?
 
Mach85ER said:
IReno came along and APA wasn't going to give the most senior Reno Captain a AA left seat when his DOH was less (1992) than most AA returning furloughees. AA management completely dismantled the Reno system too. What would you have done with Reno?
How would you feel about an America West pilot hired in 2006 furloughed since 2008 being given a Captain slot on the New American list ?
 
traderjake said:
Every other pilot group that has their own separate seniority list.
Dosent the west claim there is only one list? So, according to them why do they deserve a seat, no seperate list....
What is it traitor? Having it both was again?
 
flyer63 said:
Do us a favor and don't try to justify your actions in previous mergers. Doesn't help explain anything. From my numbers AA has some good attrition over the next 5 years they lose 867 pilots. Not to schabby..

Usair loses 1046... So I agree with Luv9.... You boys just dig in and fight this out. It has all the tell tale signs of a long drawn out process. good for most involved....
 
Ok, I'll try this one more time.
 
I'll agree this merger and airline environment is completely different than what APA faced with handling Reno and TWA. Again, using Aircal as a whine is totally idiotic.
 
As for "capturing" attrition, I think 99% of AA pilots if you sat down with them would agree that your group should "capture" every one of your retired pilot seats. What I believe 99% of AA pilots would not agree to is a 5 year drawn out USAPA lawsuit/appeal/lawsuit/appeal to get those slots and then claim they want a relative percentage SLI. Our big attrition starts after 5 years. You guys would be grabbing your attrition and then ours with a DOH.
 
A 5-10 year fence with DOH? That is DOA. Take a look at the numbers. I know your east FO's have suffered long in stagnation, but no way is that not insignificant number of guys going to be bidding the much larger AA widebody fleet Captain slots using DOH after a 5 year fence drop. Same goes for the early 2000 hires ahead of AA furloughees. Your widebody fleet and orders/options? Keep every damn seat and get a percentage of future combined system growth sometime down the road.
 
FYI-I'm nobody, not on any APA committee or even have spoken to anyone involved regarding the SLI.
 
Freighterguynow said:
You are an applicant not a member.
You have equal status to a new hire on probation.
That would be your status as well. Are you expecting special treatment? :lol:
 
Mach

If you are going to negotiate here on the forum then remember that saying no, no, no is not negotiating.

What is your proposal?

'84
 
Freighterguynow said:
How would you feel about an America West pilot hired in 2006 furloughed since 2008 being given a Captain slot on the New American list ?
 
I don't know your list or where that guy was slotted. You tell me.
 
If it's a 190 guy, I wouldn't plan on seeing him slotted on a Captain slot on AA metal with somebodies proposal of slotting all Captains together then FO's.
 
Freighterguynow said:
How would you feel about an America West pilot hired in 2006 furloughed since 2008 being given a Captain slot on the New American list ?
Probably the same way that pilot furloughed in 2008 felt due to acquiring 1800 furloughs from US Airways, freightetguybackthen.

Polar at Atlas?
 
Piedmont1984 said:
Mach

If you are going to negotiate here on the forum then remember that saying no, no, no is not negotiating.

What is your proposal?

'84
 
 
Read my posts again. I'm not negotiating, I threw in some thoughts along with my main point of disputing luvthe9's little girl hysterical act that ignores the facts. I don't have any comprehensive "proposal". Guys throwing out stuff like 5-10 year fences, DOH, ect, (including me) should consider the numbers effects. Does it screw you guys? Does it screw us? I pointed out one problem with delaying. . The facts are that it could screw the AA pilots with one tactic I mentioned. I don't know the exact numbers, but I'd bet that a 5 year fence with DOH screws the AA guys. If someone disagrees, please correct me.
 
Correction. I don't have the exact number, but a 5 year AA attrition number is bigger than I thought. I was using 5 years starting a year or two ago. In 2019 we retire 404 which skews the number if starting a 5 year clock today. In 2018, 286. Before that we are in the low 100's. This year maybe 50?
 
Are you guys going to ban me for being the first guy in 787 pages of posts that admitted a mistake? 😀
 
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