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2014 Pilot Discussion

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USA320Pilot said:
I believe the East pilots are not correctly looking at the Nicolau Award or the PA discussions.

Most East pilots view the Nicolau Award as a moral issue. They simply look at dollars and cents; along with time off, and then they become a deer in headlights. The problem is that the Nicolau Award stopped being a moral issue the day USAPA was elected and is now a legal issue because we lost two separate leadership bodies -- the two MECs. With one leadership body -- the BPR, USAPA must represent all pilots fairly and honor all aspects of our contract. With USAPA's certification the AWA SLI became a legal issue that is still DFR because LOA 96, Section 4 still applies, when the violation is ripe for adjudication.

As far as the PA discussions most people including myself believe the M-B statute is designed to prevent an AA APA-TWA ALPA type of result, which is the objective of the statute. The challenge is USAPA negotiated and the pilots authorized a process for APA to become our union before the M-B arbitration, if held. That's why Judge Silver unequivocally held that USAPA cannot participate in the M-B proceedings once it is no longer the certified bargaining agent. 

Why? A finding of Single Carrier Status (SCS) will quickly eliminate USAPA’s role as our collective bargaining agent (CBA), and thereafter it will be legally barred from representing anyone. The Allied Pilots Association (APA) will become the CBA for all American Airlines pilots, just as USAPA became the CBA for all US Airways pilots when it was certified by the NMB. 

Do I like this? No, of course not. But, it's the law and we have a federal judge who wrote in her Addington II DFR that " USAPA has succeeded here but it is a Pyrrhic victory. As contemplated by the MOU, in the very near future an election will take place and a new representative will be chosen by all of the post-merger pilots.13 It is almost certain USAPA will lose that election. Once that happens, USAPA will no longer be entitled to participate in the seniority integrationproceedings."

For those who would argue differently can you show me one example where after the NMB orders a SCS, where one union is certified to represent the combined employee groups, where both unions continue to exist and represent their pre-merger/SCS pilots in contract or ISL negotiations post SCS? 

As far as listening to the advice of our advisors I believe it's important to point out ALPA's advisors were salaried or contract employees who did not have "skin" in the game because they were not charging billable hours. USAPA's advisors have a retainer and then only get paid if they generate work -- with billable hours. And, if USAPA's advisors do not provide the BPR a recommendation the BPR wants to hear how long will the adivsors continue to be paid by USAPA? Just ask Lee Seham. I believe Russ Blackwell hit the nail on the head when he said, "I have experience with the B&W firm, who ably represented the union at my former employer - the Wilders are very good at what they do. All lawyers will give the best advice they can to their clients, but if their clients instruct them to take course of action contrary to their recommendation, they must do so. And a number of USAPA's leadership will gladly have the lawyers press a losing case, so that they can blame the lawyers or the courts for a bad outcome, rather than having to make a hard decision themselves and accept the 'blame' from the pilot group.."

In conclusion, I do not have the same level of advisor confidence as some of USAPA's leaders because USAPA's advisors will only get paid if they recommend what USAPA desires.

And, I believe the NMB will shortly determine APA is our new union. Once a SCS determination is made I believe we will see a 3-way ISL arbitration with 3 MCs (APA MC, USAPA legacy East MC, and a USAPA legacy West MC). 
If you're "patient" the truth will eventually emerge.  Here we now have the SOURCE of Chip's idiocy....RUSS BLACKWELL a former Republic pilot and third lister whose EXPERT opinion has painted USAPA into a corner.  (Not that opinions can do that, it's just that Chip thinks an "opinion" does that...you know, the "judicial estoppel" thing.)
 
APA is JUDICIALLY ESTOPPED (meaning that in a court of law, their position that the West merger committee under M-B has standing) from giving them ANY seat at the table of the merger.  Just because the APA becomes the representative DOES NOT give them legal rights under federal law to trump statutes under RLA OR M-B.
 
The best way to look at M-B is that seniority is CARVED OUT OF THE RLA and has become a separate issue.
 
Here is what I BELIEVE will happen in the few short years to come....AIRLINE PILOT LABOR UNIONS WILL BE ELIMINATED BECAUSE PILOTS ARE TOO STUPID TO COME UP WITH MEASURABLE OBJECTIVE STANDARDS FOR THE VALUATION OF THEIR OWN KIND.
 
USA320Pilot said:
And, according to one very bright pilot, "The next arbitration panel will incorporate the Nic because they will not ignore the work of their colleague circa 2007. Yes, it's that simple. This is NOT my opinion but that of a very learned attorney who has worked with these arbitrators for 35 years. That's not 'how the roll' so to say." 
"C. Procedural History
In March 2013, shortly after the MOU was ratified but before the merger was completed, a group of West Pilots, on behalf of themselves and others similarly situated, filed the present suit alleging various claims against USAPA. As stated in the amended complaint, the West Pilot’s first claim is that USAPA “breached the duty of fair representation by entering into the MOU because the MOU abandons a duty to treat the Nicolau Award as final and binding.” (Doc. 134 at 13). Because the only seniority integration that will occur will be during the McCaskill-Bond process, the exact claim is formulated as “USAPA breached the duty of fair representation when it entered into the MOU because the MOU does not require USAPA use the Nicolau Award in the McCaskill-Bond process.” (Doc. 122 at 4). In addition to this claim, the West Pilots also seek a declaration “that they have party status and the right (but not the obligation) to participate fully (with counsel of their own choice) in the [McCaskill-Bond process]."
 
The West Pilots are JUDAICALLY ESTOPPED from arguing that they have participant status because THEY ASKED THE JUDGE TO DECIDE WHETHER THEY HAD STANDING UNDER M-B TO HAVE PARTY (PARTICIPANT) STATUS, NOT USAPA.  Here is the FULL TEXT of what the WEST PILOTS asked the Judge to decide:
 
"132. The West Pilots are entitled, pursuant to 28 U.S.C. § 2201, to an order declaring that they have party status and the right (but not the obligation) to participate fully (with counsel of their own choice) in the MOU Seniority Integration process."
 
Here is the TEXT of Judge Silvers ANSWER:
 
"C. Participation in McCaskill-Bond
The West Pilots seek a declaration that they are entitled to participate in the upcoming seniority integration process for all pilots at the post-merger airline. That process is governed
by the McCaskill-Bond Amendment to the Federal Aviation Act, 49 U.S.C. § 42112 note (“McCaskill-Bond”). Under that statute, the West Pilots are not entitled to participate."
 
ASKED AND ANSWERED.  HOW ABOUT READING THE LAW, RUSS AND CHIP.
 
nycbusdriver said:
 
I bet his "bright pilot" is traitor.
No, the "bright pilot" is Russ Blackwell, the guy in Chips last post.  Sounds like Russ likes to lob hand grenades from behind the "brick-wall" of anonymity just like Chip.  WITHOUT ANY LEGAL QUOTATIONS like I post.
 
USA320Pilot said:
And, according to one very bright pilot, "The next arbitration panel will incorporate the Nic because they will not ignore the work of their colleague circa 2007. Yes, it's that simple. This is NOT my opinion but that of a very learned attorney who has worked with these arbitrators for 35 years. That's not 'how the roll' so to say." 
 
C. Procedural History
 
In March 2013, shortly after the MOU was ratified but before the merger was completed, a group of West Pilots, on behalf of themselves and others similarly situated, filed the present suit alleging various claims against USAPA. As stated in the amended complaint, the West Pilot’s first claim is that USAPA “breached the duty of fair representation by entering into the MOU because the MOU abandons a duty to treat the Nicolau Award as final and binding.” (Doc. 134 at 13).
 
The WEST pilots are JUDICIALLY ESTOPPED from making the claim that the Nicoalu award is active because they already ASKED the court to GIVE THEM STATUS because the MOU ABANDONS a duty to TREAT THE NICOLAU AWARD AS FINAL AND BINDING.
 
Judge Silver RULED AGAINST THE WEST PILOT CLASS.
 
end_of_alpa said:
Here is what I BELIEVE will happen in the few short years to come....AIRLINE PILOT LABOR UNIONS WILL BE ELIMINATED BECAUSE PILOTS ARE TOO STUPID TO COME UP WITH MEASURABLE OBJECTIVE STANDARDS FOR THE VALUATION OF THEIR OWN KIND.
I agree and it's why I am glad I left the profession. Pilots inability to wrap it's head around a simple union concept has cost it billions over the last 36 years since deregulation.

And as for the bright pilot you reference, I also have friends who are learned labor law attornes. Not only have they called USAPA's legal victories on seniority issues, they also believe with the tracks that have been laid with each legal ruling and a voted on ratified ageement that abandoned the Nicalou award there is no chance of that award being utilized. Arbitrators are creatures of law and contracts and their is neither compelling legal orders or reasons nor any contractual language for an arbitrator to rely on to use the Nicalou award. Added to it is the history of how Arbitrator Blocch ruled in the the US/AWA dispatcher SLI and how his accounting of the US vs AWA airline systen valuation has been proven correct and borne out by 9 years of history. You also have subsequent changes in ALPA seniority policy and the UAL/CAL SLI and the fact that the arbitration panel negatively references the Nicalou award.

I know I am going to get accused of being a knuckle dragging dock worker by certain posters but making 50% more than your highest paid pilot in a job that requires a 1/10 of the education and skill will have to get me through the injury to my ego.

Here is what a real union can accomplish.

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2014/06/23/billions-at-risk-as-west-coast-port-contract-ends/?intcmp=latestnews
 
ROACLT said:
I agree and it's why I am glad I left the profession. Pilots inability to wrap it's head around a simple union concept has cost it billions over the last 36 years since deregulation.

And as for the bright pilot you reference, I also have friends who are learned labor law attornes. Not only have they called USAPA's legal victories on seniority issues, they also believe with the tracks that have been laid with each legal ruling and a voted on ratified ageement that abandoned the Nicalou award there is no chance of that award being utilized. Arbitrators are creatures of law and contracts and their is neither compelling legal orders or reasons nor any contractual language for an arbitrator to rely on to use the Nicalou award. Added to it is the history of how Arbitrator Blocch ruled in the the US/AWA dispatcher SLI and how his accounting of the US vs AWA airline systen valuation has been proven correct and borne out by 9 years of history. You also have subsequent changes in ALPA seniority policy and the UAL/CAL SLI and the fact that the arbitration panel negatively references the Nicalou award.

I know I am going to get accused of being a knuckle dragging dock worker by certain posters but making 50% more than your highest paid pilot in a job that requires a 1/10 of the education and skill will have to get me through the injury to my ego.

Here is what a real union can accomplish.

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2014/06/23/billions-at-risk-as-west-coast-port-contract-ends/?intcmp=latestnews
Now here is a reasoned response to an "inconvenient truth".  Kudos to you.
 
end_of_alpa said:
 

 
The West Pilots are JUDAICALLY ESTOPPED from arguing that they have participant status because 

 
 
JUDAICALLY????   Really????
 
Oy veh!
 
(Sorry, I could not resist commenting on that one.  But I know "What the Captain meant to say.")
 
😳
 
nycbusdriver said:
 
I bet his "bright pilot" is traitor.
 
Don't you ever get tired of being wrong?
 
Sounds like the number of East pilots who oppose USAPA has increased by 50%.   😀
 
nycbusdriver said:
 
Yeah.  I guess my biggest mistake was even thinking about equating you with "bright."  Wouldn't you agree?  
 
You claim to have flown with me, I have no idea who you are so as far as your biggest mistake you're on you own.
 
nycbusdriver said:
 
JUDAICALLY????   Really????
 
Oy veh!
 
(Sorry, I could not resist commenting on that one.  But I know "What the Captain meant to say.")
 
😳
Oh, i just got that!  Sorry, Padre.... automatic spell checker sometimes doesn't know how to spell.  How about JUDICIALLY ...... is that better? (I still think I like the spell checked version better!)
 
USA320Pilot said:
I believe the East pilots are not correctly looking at the Nicolau Award or the PA discussions.

Most East pilots view the Nicolau Award as a moral issue. They simply look at dollars and cents; along with time off, and then they become a deer in headlights. The problem is that the Nicolau Award stopped being a moral issue the day USAPA was elected and is now a legal issue because we lost two separate leadership bodies -- the two MECs. With one leadership body -- the BPR, USAPA must represent all pilots fairly and honor all aspects of our contract. With USAPA's certification the AWA SLI became a legal issue that is still DFR because LOA 96, Section 4 still applies, when the violation is ripe for adjudication.

 
Cactus737,

The AWA pilots had an opportunity to comply with the EC's May 24 resolution to seek a consensual agreement to the Nicolau Award. The AWA MEC elected to not abide by the EC's resolution and now will watch the East pilots plan of attack proceed.

Why? The majority of the East pilots could care less what the AWA pilots think and the East pilots will seek to impose its will on the West pilots. The AWA pilots had their chance and "stuck their noses in the air" to John Prater.

In his June 10 Chairman's Message to the pilots Jack Stephan said, "Now that the America West MEC has declared its unwillingness to comply with the Executive Council’s May 24 Resolution, as the Executive Council deliberates on the issues before it, we believe strongly that the Executive Council should take into consideration the America West MEC’s refusal to comply with that Executive Council Resolution."

Simply put, either the EC throws out the Nicolau Award or ALPA will be kicked off of both the East and West property, the US Airways pilots will seek a pay raise per Doug Parker's offer to try to fix this mess, and there will be no joint contract, which will prevent the Nicolau Award from being implemented.

To summarize, the East pilots no longer care what the West pilots think because the AWA MEC had their chance to comply with the EC's May 24 resolution!

Regards,

USA320Pilot
 
 
Posted 23 June 2007 - 01:37 AM
 
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