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2014 Pilot Discussion

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Pi brat said:
You might be right, I won't make a prediction on that. But let's say the west gets it's own merger committee. What will be the grounds? That the MOU called for the continuation of the separate lists, right? So they will be arguing that they are due their separate representation because of separate lists, but arguing to use a combined list, the Nic as the starting point. One that does not fit the MOU definition of "in effect" and has never been used. Illogical to me.
 
They just want another shoulder to cry on in a desperate hope that someone may actually pay attention to them.
 
They whined to Parker and Kirby, and basically got ignored.
 
They whined to Judge Silver, and basically got ignored.
 
They whined to the AA Ops Management, and basically got ignored.
 
They want their opportunity to do their One-Trick-Pony Show and whine to the M-B arbitration panel.  That's all.
 
nycbusdriver said:
They just want another shoulder to cry on in a desperate hope that someone may actually pay attention to them.
 
They whined to Parker and Kirby, and basically got ignored.
 
They whined to Judge Silver, and basically got ignored.
 
They whined to the AA Ops Management, and basically got ignored.
 
They want their opportunity to do their One-Trick-Pony Show and whine to the M-B arbitration panel.  That's all.
I think it's the last chance for the Nic. I don't get why people think that an arbitration panel would use something that has never been used, has been ruled on in federal court that it doesn't have to be used and is not in the agreement we all voted for, just because it's from "a highly respected arbitrator..."

For that reason I've said that I wouldn't have a problem with the west having their own merger committee and that separation could strengthen USAPA's argument. I just figure there is a reason to fight it.
 
EastUS1 said:
Seriously though; I'd think that issue alone to be fine fodder for eagerly salivating lawyers. Her Honor Silver's court saw nothing that at all entitled such representation.
 
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Right and if I remember correctly the question of AOL's rights at the table were in question in her court and she answered NO, and the question of USAPA's rights were not in question, she just chimed in for free on that one in her dicta. That's why I assume USAPA is not willing to give ground on that issue.
 
Claxon said:
Please post again PI. Munn and his waffling positions need constant illumination.
 
Prechilill,

The US Airways pilots will never accept the Nicolau Award. The Award may stand, but the US Airways pilots have the ability to prevent it from being implemented for about a decade and there is nothing the America West pilots can do about it.

Furthermore, I guarantee you this. I will do everything in my power to right the wrongs of the Nicolau Award until I die and the ALPA PHL and PIT Reps. and I are aligned in this fight.

Regards,

USA320Pilot
 
 
USA320Pilot Posted 18 May 2007 - 12:38 PM
 
Pi brat said:
Right and if I remember correctly the question of AOL's rights at the table were in question in her court and she answered NO, and the question of USAPA's rights were not in question, she just chimed in for free on that one in her dicta. That's why I assume USAPA is not willing to give ground on that issue.
 
Yep. There's nothing I'm at all aware of within existing law and/or court order that mandates, or even specifically permits any solely west representation. No matter really. Lawyers will likely be feasting on all of this for years to come.
 
On a confessedly and fully sarcastic note: I almost miss all the old "This is sparta!", and such utter idiots as prechilill offering up overtly bragging fantasies of immediately assuming 330 seats in CLT, and "T minus" countdown clocks as well. Given enough time; even those infantile sorts will eventually catch on to the fact that the whole world doesn't really revolve around them. Then may their personal evolution finally begin....
 
Pi brat said:
For that reason I've said that I wouldn't have a problem with the west having their own merger committee and that separation could strengthen USAPA's argument. I just figure there is a reason to fight it.
 
I guess I don't really have a problem with west pilots advocating their nonsense in front of the M-B panel.  I simply don't think it will fly.
 
I really doubt that the M-B board will countenance three merger committees.  The law does not allow for that.  M-B is set up to combine two employee groups that have different representation.  If I were on that M-B board, I would refuse to consider three lists, let alone three merger committees.  I would simply insist that such a thing is "not in my job description."  USAPA should simply go in an present the same list they pushed across the table to the company during contract negotiations.  Or, based on USAPA C&B-Ls, they should combine it based on DOH, send it to the M-B panel and be done with it.
 
So what if the westicles sue?  It only delays any progress for them, and basically keeps the east and APA moving forward.
 
nycbusdriver said:
I really doubt that the M-B board will countenance three merger committees. 
 
I have to wonder as to from where and just what legal reason that would even be made possible.
 
"So what if the westicles sue?  It only delays any progress for them, and basically keeps the east and APA moving forward." Pretty much, but that would at least keep some lawyers eating well...and perhaps even the dying "spartan" cult still left with a few devotees...
 
Freighterguynow said:
Prechilill,
The US Airways pilots will never accept the Nicolau Award. The Award may stand, but the US Airways pilots have the ability to prevent it from being implemented for about a decade and there is nothing the America West pilots can do about it.
Furthermore, I guarantee you this. I will do everything in my power to right the wrongs of the Nicolau Award until I die and the ALPA PHL and PIT Reps. and I are aligned in this fight.
Regards,
USA320Pilot
 
 
USA320Pilot Posted 18 May 2007 - 12:38 PM
Nice one! Munn most likely has been paid to switch his song. He wanted cash for vitamins, cash for plugging the plug doctor, now he is the company and APA whore.
Munn will seek cash above righteousness. A modern Judas.
 
Freighterguynow said:
Prechilill,
The US Airways pilots will never accept the Nicolau Award. The Award may stand, but the US Airways pilots have the ability to prevent it from being implemented for about a decade and there is nothing the America West pilots can do about it.
Furthermore, I guarantee you this. I will do everything in my power to right the wrongs of the Nicolau Award until I die and the ALPA PHL and PIT Reps. and I are aligned in this fight.
Regards,
USA320Pilot
 
 
USA320Pilot Posted 18 May 2007 - 12:38 PM
Munn is loathed throughout the industry. For good reason. The ultimate turncoat who floats with the breeze. Spineless.
 
I believe the East pilots are not correctly looking at the Nicolau Award or the PA discussions.

Most East pilots view the Nicolau Award as a moral issue. They simply look at dollars and cents; along with time off, and then they become a deer in headlights. The problem is that the Nicolau Award stopped being a moral issue the day USAPA was elected and is now a legal issue because we lost two separate leadership bodies -- the two MECs. With one leadership body -- the BPR, USAPA must represent all pilots fairly and honor all aspects of our contract. With USAPA's certification the AWA SLI became a legal issue that is still DFR because LOA 96, Section 4 still applies, when the violation is ripe for adjudication.

As far as the PA discussions most people including myself believe the M-B statute is designed to prevent an AA APA-TWA ALPA type of result, which is the objective of the statute. The challenge is USAPA negotiated and the pilots authorized a process for APA to become our union before the M-B arbitration, if held. That's why Judge Silver unequivocally held that USAPA cannot participate in the M-B proceedings once it is no longer the certified bargaining agent. 

Why? A finding of Single Carrier Status (SCS) will quickly eliminate USAPA’s role as our collective bargaining agent (CBA), and thereafter it will be legally barred from representing anyone. The Allied Pilots Association (APA) will become the CBA for all American Airlines pilots, just as USAPA became the CBA for all US Airways pilots when it was certified by the NMB. 

Do I like this? No, of course not. But, it's the law and we have a federal judge who wrote in her Addington II DFR that " USAPA has succeeded here but it is a Pyrrhic victory. As contemplated by the MOU, in the very near future an election will take place and a new representative will be chosen by all of the post-merger pilots.13 It is almost certain USAPA will lose that election. Once that happens, USAPA will no longer be entitled to participate in the seniority integrationproceedings."

For those who would argue differently can you show me one example where after the NMB orders a SCS, where one union is certified to represent the combined employee groups, where both unions continue to exist and represent their pre-merger/SCS pilots in contract or ISL negotiations post SCS? 

As far as listening to the advice of our advisors I believe it's important to point out ALPA's advisors were salaried or contract employees who did not have "skin" in the game because they were not charging billable hours. USAPA's advisors have a retainer and then only get paid if they generate work -- with billable hours. And, if USAPA's advisors do not provide the BPR a recommendation the BPR wants to hear how long will the adivsors continue to be paid by USAPA? Just ask Lee Seham. I believe Russ Blackwell hit the nail on the head when he said, "I have experience with the B&W firm, who ably represented the union at my former employer - the Wilders are very good at what they do. All lawyers will give the best advice they can to their clients, but if their clients instruct them to take course of action contrary to their recommendation, they must do so. And a number of USAPA's leadership will gladly have the lawyers press a losing case, so that they can blame the lawyers or the courts for a bad outcome, rather than having to make a hard decision themselves and accept the 'blame' from the pilot group.."

In conclusion, I do not have the same level of advisor confidence as some of USAPA's leaders because USAPA's advisors will only get paid if they recommend what USAPA desires.

And, I believe the NMB will shortly determine APA is our new union. Once a SCS determination is made I believe we will see a 3-way ISL arbitration with 3 MCs (APA MC, USAPA legacy East MC, and a USAPA legacy West MC). 
 
And, according to one very bright pilot, "The next arbitration panel will incorporate the Nic because they will not ignore the work of their colleague circa 2007. Yes, it's that simple. This is NOT my opinion but that of a very learned attorney who has worked with these arbitrators for 35 years. That's not 'how the roll' so to say." 
 
If this is a legal matter, then "It is accordingly ORDERED" means a little bit more than "I believe".... but it will take a loooooong time to get to the former and in the mean time there will be untold piles of the latter.  
 
USA320Pilot said:
And, according to one very bright pilot,....
 
While you're obviously self-excluding; it's most amusing that you even claim any such association.
 
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