Word from the top!

[USA320Pilot]

PineyBob,

I agree that "tabling Nic in the short term and delaying integration until a solution can be worked out and going for the MONEY RIGHT NOW you can end up with the best of both worlds," but the West pilots refuse to talk and seek a "realistic solution", to use Paul Rice's words. Nobody wants to try and shove it to the West pilots; however, the majority of East pilots are willing to do that if the West pilots refuse to negotiate a settlement to the Nicolau Award problem.

As Doug Parker indicated "we need to get everyone to work together, not apart" and if the West pilots are unwilling to do so the East pilots have no other option. But, if the West pilots agree to meet per the EC's resolutions and seek "realistic solutions" I believe the East MEC is willing to negotiate. If not, then the lawsuit will proceed for many years and USAPA's likely removal of ALPA on both properties will occur in the not-to-distant future.

Regards,

USA320Pilot

 

[Callsign_Cactus]

The issue is seniority, and you retained what you brought to the merger, period. Your US DOH seniority is not righteous as you proclaim. Rather it was slotted with an equally superior seniority at AWA. The real difference here is you think your seniority was inherently more valuable than your counterpart – that is just prop wash.

I thought the issue was attrition? You guys have so many “issuesâ€￾ I can’t possibly keep track of them. :blink:

Piney, heaven forbid that I would ever appear to favor another poster to you...

The issue is seniority. Tomorrow the issue will be seniority. The day after tomorrow the issue will be seniority. The day after the day after tomorrow the issue will be seniority.

Seniority is a union issue. (except in Prater's eyes, wether or not he wanted to inherit the position he has)

Dougwieser is dreaming if he thinks he has enough fresh meat to seperate two pitbulls that are in a death grip over seniority. He is hoping to throw a few fresh steaks in the entire dog lot and have the senior dogs whip things in shape like they always have done. It is far too dangerous for Dougwieser to have just two big pilot goups fighting, he needs all the pilots fighting each other from every direction accross both airlines up and down the seniority.

But he is a very nice chap who will give you the luxory of lunch with him, and he will listen to your concerns. So all in all he ain't a bad fellow. A lot like Prater, who also likes lunch and would like to hear your concerns. I don't know if he drinks though.

 

[Callsign_Cactus]

That's because the east MEC is proceeding with extortion tactics. A shift in strategy is needed - no one is going compromise with a gun to our head with no bullets. I am all for a solution, but only for selfish reasons (protect PHX), not because east is unhappy with the award and threatening to do whatever. No, on principle alone the east deserves everything soon coming there way for not honoring our agreements.

PineyBob,

I agree that "tabling Nic in the short term and delaying integration until a solution can be worked out and going for the MONEY RIGHT NOW you can end up with the best of both worlds," but the West pilots refuse to talk and seek a "realistic solution", to use Paul Rice's words. Nobody wants to try and shove it to the West pilots; however, the majority of East pilots are willing to do that if the West pilots refuse to negotiate a settlement to the Nicolau Award problem.

As Doug Parker indicated "we need to get everyone to work together, not apart" and if the West pilots are unwilling to do so the East pilots have no other option. But, if the West pilots agree to meet per the EC's resolutions and seek "realistic solutions" I believe the East MEC is willing to negotiate. If not, then the lawsuit will proceed for many years and USAPA's likely removal of ALPA on both properties will occur in the not-to-distant future.

Regards,

USA320Pilot

 

[songbirdstew]

I will have to completely disagree. I have found Doug to be both very approachable and quite caring and understanding. I have had the luxury of being involved in a conversation in which he took part and he was both courteous and very much appreciated everyones opinions... even those froma couple of us who worked for a US Express Contract carrier! I got the impression that he really does care about this company. Now maybe I'm easily won over.... but from my experience I will have to disagree with your comment.
If you have other experiences with him please enlighten me.

OK---Here's my experience... Prior to his 4 DUIs being made public, I was working F/C from CLT-PHX...he downed two bottles of red wine in the 3.5 hour flight....and proceeded to stand in the front galley and appeared to care...as his eyes got glassy and I explained to him that after two BK and heavy paycuts on the East side, we had employees who were commiting suicide, losing their homes, their families, etc. He looked at me in a very sympathetic way and said "Yes, I know, it's tragic and we really need to get this company going to try to take care of people like that as soon as possible." I honestly thought he DID care---and maybe he does---however he and the rest of the sand bag gang have no idea what they are doing running this airline and there is no way that their actions are helping the employees at all. In the 21 years I have been here I have never seen this place run so poorly.
As far as I'm concerned, he's a nice guy who treats his Frequent flyers/passengers and employees like crap and needs to go away.

 

[SKY HIGH]

ANYONE REMEMBER THIS ADVICE:

Richard
Group: Moderator
Posts: 315
Joined: 15-December 05
Member No.: 8,225



Too many threads are being drawn off topic and are becoming sniping grounds with personal attacks and continued debates of the east/west "ALPA dispute". There are specific threads for those topics-one for East MEC notices and one for West MEC notices. A new MEC thread for each group can be started each week, and discussions of that issue should be limited to those threads.


only stating opinions

 

[Phoenix]

The issue is seniority, and you retained what you brought to the merger, period.

Well then. That settles it. Tell Prater that he needs to put his signature on the list and swear it is true. I'ld love to sign it for you and turn it over but I don't have that authority. Do you need John's phone number?

 

[AWA320]

USA320Pilot comments: The ALPA EC, Rice Committee, Company, and the East MEC understands the necessity to reach a consensual agreement that is a "realistic solution" otherwise I believe USAPA will become to bargaining agent for both the East and West pilots in the not-to-distant future, with the West pilots the minority negotiator and "imposition" about to occur. Time is up!

You crack me right up man!!! "USAPA will become the new bargaining agent" you're killing me, where you gonna get the money to get out of the law suits we file partner???? We won't be paying any dues so where you gonna get the dollars bro???

If the West pilots do not want to talk then they do not want to talk and the East pilots will take matters into their own hands.

HAHAHAHAH You're killing me!! You preach the "the west won't follow the EC resolutions and the Rice committee" however YOUR stupid MEC is the one who wrote a resloution to pull out of talks!! Wake up man you're a follower. I read your letter from your atty and he said exactally what I thought he'd say, you gots no chance. Prater sums it up for you, the west should you decide to go down this path will sue the life right out of you!! We will NOT SUPPORT YOUR CAUSE NOR WILL WE CONTRIBUTE FINANCES TO IT!!

Regards,

USA320Pilot

You really need to get your act together man and understand what everyone's telling you. Now your MEC runs off all half cocked all the time and with each move more stupid than the last...

 

[USA320Pilot]

AWA320,

AWA320 said: "You crack me right up man!!! "USAPA will become the new bargaining agent" you're killing me, where you gonna get the money to get out of the law suits we file partner?"

USA320Pilot responds: AWA320, in the next couple of week's USAPA expects to file its NMB Form 1 or its application to begin the process of notifying the NMB that there is a representational dispute for all US Airways pilots. The work is being completed by USAPA's principal's with support from Scham, Scham, Meltz, and Petersen. Once USAPA is comfortable it has the amount of cards necessary to overwhelmingly create a representational dispute then the election for a bargaining agent will occur. This election will be for both the East and West pilots since it is my understanding the NMB will likely rule the two pilot groups are a "single class carrier".

As far as a lawsuit any complaint filed by the AWA pilots would have no merit because it is a legal right of any group to file a NMB Form 1.

USA320Pilot said: "If the West pilots do not want to talk then they do not want to talk and the East pilots will take matters into their own hands."

AWA320 said: "HAHAHAHAH You're killing me!! You preach the "the west won't follow the EC resolutions and the Rice committee" however YOUR stupid MEC is the one who wrote a resloution to pull out of talks!! Wake up man you're a follower. I read your letter from your atty and he said exactally what I thought he'd say, you gots no chance. Prater sums it up for you, the west should you decide to go down this path will sue the life right out of you!!:"

USA320Pilot said: It's unclear whether or not the US Airways MEC's lawsuit has a legal basis or not, but when you read information on the Air Wisconsin - Mississippi Valley Airlines case you can understand why the US Airways MEC filed the suit. Regardless, the US Airways MEC's Councel Roland Wilder indicated he could tie up the Nicolau Award in court for 3 to 5 year's, which would create about 900 to 1,500 pilots attrtion and move the East pilots way up the list during the litigation.

However, this lawsuit might become irrelevant because of the probability that USAPA would become the new collective bargaining agent for the East and West pilots. The USAPA Officers have held a number of conversations with their Law Firm and they know exactly what to do with the minority pilot group during the new seniority list negotiations.

According to Lee Sahem, "Federal courts evaluate a union’s seniority-related bargaining objectives under the duty of fair representation (DFR) standard. It is notoriously difficult for plaintiffs to prevail in DFR litigation. The Supreme Court has held that the DFR standard requires the courts to be “highly deferential†to a labor union’s determinations. The final product of a bargaining process may constitute evidence of a DFR violation “only if it can be fairly characterized as so far outside a ‘wide range of reasonableness’ that it is wholly ‘irrational’ or ‘arbitrary.’†ALPA v. O’Neill, 499 U.S. 65, 78 (1991)."

"In the O’Neill case, for example, the Supreme Court held that ALPA committed no DFR violation even if, in retrospect, the reinstatement agreement negotiated on behalf of striking Continental pilots left them in a worse position than if ALPA had simply surrendered and voluntarily terminated the strike. Id. at 79," Sahem noted.

Here is some more information from Sahem.

- Rakestraw decision referenced above is particularly instructive with respect to the application of DFR principles to seniority because it addresses both the impermanency of determinations related to contractual seniority as well as the right of a democratic majority to insist on dovetailing.

- The Rakestraw decision actually consolidated disputes at two different carriers: the first involving the TWA/Ozark merger and the second the modification of a “permanent†seniority agreement between UAL and ALPA in the aftermath of the disastrous strike of 1985.

- In the TWA case, Ozark pilots alleged that ALPA had caved in to the TWA pilots’ threat to secede from ALPA by collaborating in the implementation of a date of hire seniority integration instead of giving greater consideration to Ozark’s pre-merger status as the more dynamic, growing carrier. The court, however, found nothing wrong with ALPA’s acquiescence to the majority’s preference for a date of hire integration:

- A rational person could conclude that dovetailing seniority lists in a merger … serves the interests of labor as a whole. … The propriety of dovetailing, treating the two groups identically, follows directly. If the union’s leaders took account of the fact that workers at the larger firm preferred this outcome, so what? Majority rule is the norm. Equal treatment does not become forbidden because the majority prefers equality, even if formal equality bears more harshly on the minority.

Regards,

USA320Pilot

 

[Junebug172]

Man if I was a West Pilot and you said something like that to me, I'd beat you within an inch of your everloving life.

Who said anything about having to be a West Pilot. There are more east pilots the want to beat his ass for voting in LOA93 and ####-canning the pilot's pension.

 

[nostradamus]

Who said anything about having to be a West Pilot. There are more east pilots the want to beat his ass for voting in LOA93 and ####-canning the pilot's pension.

America West pilots are a good example of how to negotiate contracts over the last decade.

America West pilot quote;

"Before their bankruptcies, for their entire career the US Airways pilots were enjoying industry-leading pay, a defined pension plan (something we never had), work rules -- everything

"They are now crying because they didn't get their way," he said in an e-mail. "They made their decision to work at USAir; I made mine to work at America West, which, by the way, has historically been the LOWEST paid airline in the U.S. The East pilots have been paid far and above what America West pilots have been paid over the same period of time doing the same job."

We undercut Usairways pilots for a long time and we are proud of it article.

 

[700UW]

If the West pilots do not want to talk then they do not want to talk and the East pilots will take matters into their own hands.

Regards,

USA320Pilot

I hope the East MEC has deep pockets as you will be sued by US, just look what happened at AA with APA and UAL and NWA with AMFA.

Any concerted effort of a slowdown will cause a TRO, Injuction and fines, better hope US does not get Judge Kendell.

 

[b737fo]

If the West pilots do not want to talk then they do not want to talk and the East pilots will take matters into their own hands.

Who would the West talk to when there are empty chairs where the East side of the JNC sat?

 

[A320 Driver]

Pheonix,

I understand the whole seniority issue. Honestly I do.

But face it DOH is deader than Paris Hilton's brain

For that matter IMO so is Nicolau! DEAD DEAD DEAD
So now the question becomes, will you work for however many years at the current wage levels while the courts sort this out? Only to end up with another arbitrary integration that may or may not be to your liking? Or will you find a common middle ground? One that may not make everyone happy but at least ensures that everyone is equally pissed off?

Very good points Bob. We wait, how many YEARS, for this to come to court, only to lose again. Or, East wins, new arbitration, same case, possibly lose again. It comes down to your statement above regarding DOH AND NIC AWARD being DEAD. What is it going to take for both sides to realize their positions cannot be acheived in any practical sense???

I haven't seen it posted anywhere, but I could have missed it...what if you could get West to negate the Trasition Agreement to give East parity. Doesn't that open up Pandora's box as far as the company being able to move time in and out of whatever operation to suit themselves? That could hurt either or both groups.

We need some new ideas. Something that doesn't involve total surrender of one side or the other. The MECs are digging themselves a hole.

A320 Driver B)

 

[AWA320]

USA320Pilot responds: AWA320, in the next couple of week's USAPA expects to file its NMB Form 1 or its application to begin the process of notifying the NMB that there is a representational dispute for all US Airways pilots. The work is being completed by USAPA's principal's with support from Scham, Scham, Meltz, and Petersen. Once USAPA is comfortable it has the amount of cards necessary to overwhelmingly create a representational dispute then the election for a bargaining agent will occur. This election will be for both the East and West pilots since it is my understanding the NMB will likely rule the two pilot groups are a "single class carrier".

Two distict problems, one is you can not fairly represent the pilots in PHX or LAS when they will not participate in your new faction DFR already, second and even more important you left out the company who most certainly will not allow you to send their costs thru the roof with this non sense. We mut have been reading two different letters by this attorney. The one I read stated that your attempts to overturn or otherwise set aside an already decided case would be fruitless any any law suit to do the same would be equally fruitless.

As far as a lawsuit any complaint filed by the AWA pilots would have no merit because it is a legal right of any group to file a NMB Form 1.

Time for you to call your attorney buddy again. You can and most certainly will be sued by the west pilot group. The merit you seem to have overlooked is this, you only sought to change unions in an attempt to get out of your obligations in an already decided arbitration. You have further left a paper tail of the many and different attampts. This is no different than an spouse who trys to hide funds or takes a lower paying job in an attempt to get out of their obligations of the court order. Now time to ask about the remedy when you lose!!! You most certainly will not have the money to pay this judgement so the only thig you will have left for yrs and yrs to come is your captain seats. Try not to be dumb in all you do!!!


USA320Pilot said: It's unclear whether or not the US Airways MEC's lawsuit has a legal basis or not, but when you read information on the Air Wisconsin - Mississippi Valley Airlines case you can understand why the US Airways MEC filed the suit. Regardless, the US Airways MEC's Councel Roland Wilder indicated he could tie up the Nicolau Award in court for 3 to 5 year's, which would create about 900 to 1,500 pilots attrtion and move the East pilots way up the list during the litigation.

Now you stepped into a whole new rhelm of denial!! Your attorney has already told you this man, were you listening?? Roland may have told you this but I sincerely doubt it!! The company will not let it go on that long in fact this nonsence will be over no later than November. You have drastically under estimated the west mec and I am certain that you and USAPA are just about to be dealt the blow of your lives!! Your moves are mad without any intellect at all but rather emotion. This is retuning to haunt you over and over.

However, this lawsuit might become irrelevant because of the probability that USAPA would become the new collective bargaining agent for the East and West pilots. The USAPA Officers have held a number of conversations with their Law Firm and they know exactly what to do with the minority pilot group during the new seniority list negotiations.

Really??? Ask him how you get out of the fact of why you choose to set up this new faction?? Ask him how you get out of your obliations of an already decided case. You gonna get sued man, trust me!!!

According to Lee Sahem, "Federal courts evaluate a union’s seniority-related bargaining objectives under the duty of fair representation (DFR) standard. It is notoriously difficult for plaintiffs to prevail in DFR litigation. The Supreme Court has held that the DFR standard requires the courts to be “highly deferential†to a labor union’s determinations. The final product of a bargaining process may constitute evidence of a DFR violation “only if it can be fairly characterized as so far outside a ‘wide range of reasonableness’ that it is wholly ‘irrational’ or ‘arbitrary.’†ALPA v. O’Neill, 499 U.S. 65, 78 (1991)."

Absolutly correct, it is and even more important is how the courts look at motive for actions. You again being fully advised decided to enter into negotiations via arbitration. You faild to get what you wanted and now seek to inflict harm on the other group by changing unions in an attempt to get out of your obligations. You will fail in your attempt. This case of your is a loser and you had better give serious thought to the remedy!!!

"In the O’Neill case, for example, the Supreme Court held that ALPA committed no DFR violation even if, in retrospect, the reinstatement agreement negotiated on behalf of striking Continental pilots left them in a worse position than if ALPA had simply surrendered and voluntarily terminated the strike. Id. at 79," Sahem noted.

Case totally off point!!!

Here is some more information from Sahem.

- Rakestraw decision referenced above is particularly instructive with respect to the application of DFR principles to seniority because it addresses both the impermanency of determinations related to contractual seniority as well as the right of a democratic majority to insist on dovetailing.

- The Rakestraw decision actually consolidated disputes at two different carriers: the first involving the TWA/Ozark merger and the second the modification of a “permanent†seniority agreement between UAL and ALPA in the aftermath of the disastrous strike of 1985.

- In the TWA case, Ozark pilots alleged that ALPA had caved in to the TWA pilots’ threat to secede from ALPA by collaborating in the implementation of a date of hire seniority integration instead of giving greater consideration to Ozark’s pre-merger status as the more dynamic, growing carrier. The court, however, found nothing wrong with ALPA’s acquiescence to the majority’s preference for a date of hire integration:

- A rational person could conclude that dovetailing seniority lists in a merger … serves the interests of labor as a whole. … The propriety of dovetailing, treating the two groups identically, follows directly. If the union’s leaders took account of the fact that workers at the larger firm preferred this outcome, so what? Majority rule is the norm. Equal treatment does not become forbidden because the majority prefers equality, even if formal equality bears more harshly on the minority.

Regards,

USA320Pilot

You can not win this and you will only hurt those you leave behind.

 

[A320 Driver]

You can not win this and you will only hurt those you leave behind.

Neither can you. For you to think that the Nic award can be forwarded and everyone go on their merry way is laughable. You want an East wake up call? Well, the same goes for the West.

We don't need law suits, we need WORKABLE solutions or ALPA IS TOAST. People are getting tired of waiting, me most of all. That is why my card went in. It is time for ALPA National and both MECs to step up to the plate and find a way to move forward or we need to move in another direction in the hope of finding a fair solution.


A320 Driver