Why I Voted Yes

[TWU informer]

[background=rgb(255, 255, 255)]My view

There are three core groups voting on this T/A. The Yes group, the No group, and the No element of AMFA supporters hoping to get enough AMFA cards signed by creating mistrust and dissension among the AMTs facing the crises we're in. [/background]

How can an AMFA supporter "create" mistrust and dissension? I have no power over another's opinion. The TWU is either trusted or not based on their performance, not what is said or claimed by others.

And the Teamsters have been clearly stating the AA Mechanics No Longer want the TWU and claiming they can force AA to open the contract upon certification.

Where do those folks fall into your game of blame?

 

[Tex-Mech]

[background=rgb(255, 255, 255)]Individuals such as Owens, Peterson, and the AMFA bloggers, employ empty promises of future events that will dramatically change the landscape, as they ignore the fact we're in Bankruptcy Court, and not a routine section 6 negotiations.[/background]

So what you're saying is that we should just roll over and play dead because bankruptcy is involved? There's the fighting spirit. An attitude like that will surely get you fast tracked into an international position.

 

[Tulsamechanic9]

We all spent time and money to be able to work on aircraft. We all willingly accepted a job with a company where we had to become union members. I am not using an alias calling people a fool who are voting yes to lower the standard of contract language which will not only affect our profession at AA but affect our craft industry wide.

This t/a is not a "normal" get a week extra vacation but give up a paid lunch, etc. This t/a is bigger than anyone's "situation". You post that this t/a is to be decided on "our situation" but your "our" is personal/indivdual. This t/a is really OUR situation meaning OUR craft's situation as a WHOLE. Willingly voting yes on this t/a is foolish. Period. If you have an issue with my opinion then it only means that you agree with my opinion but are too fearful to admit it.

What does my living in CA have anything to do with the fact that as union men and women we do not LOWER the bar and make MORE sacrifices that further harm our craft. The company has lied to you and will continue to lie to you. The twu lies to you and will continue to lie to you. To listen to liars who repeadtedly lie to you is foolish.

"Why can't we all just do it Ken's way because he knows what's best for all of us regardless of what our situation may be."

You wouldn't like "my way" because I believe in a craft union for OUR craft where all officers are elected and held accountable by the membership. I do not believe in bringing back concessionary contracts. I believe in democracy. But to you I am sure these are all foolish.

If you view my opinion of yes voters as being foolish as berating that is your choice. I stand by my beliefs and do not apologize. The truth hurts at times.

VOTE NO!

VOTE AMFA!

Listen Ken if you have some Grand agenda then that is your issue, I became an Aircraft Mechanic to make a living and raise my family, my family depends on me I do not have the luxury of having grand agenda's of how to save the Aircraft Mechanic Industry, I 'm just trying to survive & take care of my family as best I can, also not everyone agree's that your way is the best way to save the Aircraft Mechanic Industry you are one Man with an opinion that may be right or it may be wrong, everyone must make their own choice as to what they believe is right or wrong, If you don't like the way things are going at AA then quit & go work somewhere else instead of expecting us to follow your lead & suffer if your wrong as I suspect you are.
Southwest is AMFA & they make a lot of money, sounds like a perfect place for you as for me having only spent only a couple of years at Votech & a couple thousand dollars to get my license I am content with what AA is offering me as a fair & equitable wage & benefits, that is why i'm voting for the contract.

 

[Ken MacTiernan]

Listen Ken if you have some Grand agenda then that is your issue, I became an Aircraft Mechanic to make a living and raise my family, my family depends on me I do not have the luxury of having grand agenda's of how to save the Aircraft Mechanic Industry, I 'm just trying to survive & take care of my family as best I can, also not everyone agree's that your way is the best way to save the Aircraft Mechanic Industry you are one Man with an opinion that may be right or it may be wrong, everyone must make their own choice as to what they believe is right or wrong, If you don't like the way things are going at AA then quit & go work somewhere else instead of expecting us to follow your lead & suffer if your wrong as I suspect you are.
Southwest is AMFA & they make a lot of money, sounds like a perfect place for you as for me having only spent only a couple of years at Votech & a couple thousand dollars to get my license I am content with what AA is offering me as a fair & equitable wage & benefits, that is why i'm voting for the contract.

If you feel that you are being offered a fair & equitable wage & benefits then why are you willing to accept being offered less wage & benefits? I, like you, have a family and they depend on me to provide a good living. By willingly accepting this t/a that ability to provide a good living is at greater risk.

Why should I go to Southwest or someplace else just because it is better there? Did you ever think that maybe unlike management I actually have pride in being an AMT at American Airlines and wish to bring that pride back? You suggest I leave AA because it would be easier to just go someplace else and not fight for what Southwest AMTs, and others, have here at AA?

You might not think "my way" is the right way but that is where the democratic process comes in. Living in fear as you do is foolish.

 

[whatajoke]

I agree with you KM should go somewhere else to work if he does not like it here.
There will never be one mechanic Union KM is having delusions of grandeur.
As for AA giving us a fair wage I disagree with you totally.
This is where most members do not have a clue, AA has kept the maintenance base because of the savings in there maintenance spend. Do not let them fool you going outside for maintenance is not as cheap as it was just a few years back it is called supply and demand.
I am voting NO.

 

[Tex-Mech]

Listen Ken if you have some Grand agenda then that is your issue, I became an Aircraft Mechanic to make a living and raise my family, my family depends on me I do not have the luxury of having grand agenda's of how to save the Aircraft Mechanic Industry, I 'm just trying to survive & take care of my family as best I can,

And if you lived someplace outside of Tulsa, your family would rely on you having two jobs in addition to your wife's job, and putting the dog to work. That is the reality in the rest of the system, and why 5 out of 6 AMT's at the negotiating table voted to reject bringing this offer back. By voting for this offer, you are voting to have an AMT in a high cost city having 3 jobs instead of 2. Is it fair that the Southwest mechanic only works one job? Even the guys I work with at AFW have two jobs, or have their wife working. That is our reality.

 

[enough already]

Why is it that if you complain about something and are trying to fix it, you are told to quit and go work somewhere else?

 

[1AA]

Why is it that if you complain about something and are trying to fix it, you are told to quit and go work somewhere else?

Path of least resistance.
Spineless.
No ca hones.
That's three I can think of.

 

[Realityck]

How can an AMFA supporter "create" mistrust and dissension? I have no power over another's opinion. The TWU is either trusted or not based on their performance, not what is said or claimed by others.

And the Teamsters have been clearly stating the AA Mechanics No Longer want the TWU and claiming they can force AA to open the contract upon certification.

Where do those folks fall into your game of blame?


I didn't mention the TWU or Teamsters did I, just the AMFA who I've had some experience with. Nothing AMFA did ever convinced me they were the salvation of any AMT, and the NWA fiasco where they walked blindly into managements trap, and a strike they couldn't win, proved it. From +8,000 AMTs to approximately 800 is quite a victory. Management baited them into a corner, and the AMFA leadership fell for it.

BTW, save the SWA rhetoric because everyone knows their management is (in most cases) more cognizant of the value of their employees than any carrier I know of. The AMFA inheriting the IBT contract opened the door, and subsequent contract extensions at a carrier that never had a losing quarter helped them get to where they are today. Their AMT to Aircraft ratio is a hell of a lot different than ours too.

 

[Tex-Mech]

BTW, save the SWA rhetoric because everyone knows their management is (in most cases) more cognizant of the value of their employees than any carrier I know of.

But yet the TWU international and local 514 is standing side by side with management at AA, even though we can all recognize that AA management is not "cognizant of the value of their employees." Why is that?

 

[OldGuy@AA]

We'll get em next time brother. hahahaha.

In the words of one of the DFW Dozen who came up here. "Tell your friends to vote no!"

 

[Ken MacTiernan]

I agree with you KM should go somewhere else to work if he does not like it here.
There will never be one mechanic Union KM is having delusions of grandeur.
As for AA giving us a fair wage I disagree with you totally.
This is where most members do not have a clue, AA has kept the maintenance base because of the savings in there maintenance spend. Do not let them fool you going outside for maintenance is not as cheap as it was just a few years back it is called supply and demand.
I am voting NO.

"If you do not like it leave. that is what AA is telling you.
I am voting NO"

Hum, joker, this is your quote from another thread but it makes your top quote... what exactly?

I do not believe we are being paid fair & equitable pay & benefits so I am voting no. I want to fight to protect OUR craft here at AA and industry wide so I am not leaving like you indicate the company, and niner, are telling me to do. You don't like it here and are fighting by voting no. So which is it? Do we stand together and fight together for OUR craft or make contradicting posts from behind an alias?

By the way, why do you believe there will never be one mechanic union?

 

[Realityck]

American's unions on hot seat on contracts

Posted Saturday, Aug. 04, 2012
BY MITCHELL SCHNURMAN

Jerry Jones likes to say, "Don't let your money get mad."
That's easier to do if you have a lot of it, like the Cowboys owner, but it's a solid principle for regular folks, too -- especially union workers at American Airlines.

Anger and distrust run so deep at American that some pilots, mechanics and flight attendants will soon reject new contracts, even though the deals are significantly better than the alternative. If enough workers turn down these so-called last, best offers from American, the bankruptcy judge could impose tougher terms. And the debate over a potential merger with US Airways could be delayed.
Most important, the labor groups would forgo a big equity stake that gives them more power in charting the company's future. The value of that equity, to be awarded as part of the new contracts, cannot be overstated.

Advisers to the pilots put it this way: Without the stock, they'll be relegated to the kids' table, where they can scream and whine all they want -- and largely be ignored.

But if labor has a combined 20 percent of the shares in the new company, along with its three seats on the unsecured creditors committee, the unions will be sitting at the parents' table. They'll have a say on dinner and how it's divvied up.

Still not convinced? Consider that American CEO Tom Horton and US Air CEO Doug Parker both want union workers to approve the contracts this month. The two execs don't agree on much, especially the end game for American, but they see this issue the same way.
The contracts are a milestone in American's Chapter 11 reorganization and a prerequisite to everything that comes next. Get them done, and the process moves forward and builds toward the conclusion everyone's waiting for -- the showdown between Horton's vision and Parker's.

Reject the deals, and more court fights, chaos and delays will follow.
These contract votes -- scheduled to conclude this week for pilots and mechanics, and in mid-August for flight attendants -- should not be a tough call. While the offers include deep concessions, it would only make things worse to give up the stock and invite the judge to act.

But union politics are intense, and negotiators face a backlash from workers who are distressed about the looming cutbacks. Consider that the pilots' union board approved its tentative agreement by a slim 9-7 margin.

As with Congress, some votes were political theater, intended to burnish hard-line reputations. Many leaders are treading lightly, even though they want the contracts approved. It's almost as if an endorsement -- from union officials and certainly from American -- would be a kiss of death.

Some mechanics also see nothing but downside. American's Alliance maintenance facility, for instance, is slated to close. How do those workers approve any deal? Other opponents ran an unsigned half-page newspaper ad aimed at Tulsa mechanics, urging a no vote to "save our profession."

Last week, the flight attendants union turned more aggressive, holding road shows in San Francisco, Los Angeles and St. Louis. This week, they're scheduled to go to Boston, Chicago and New York. They have an additional fear: If pilots approve a deal and they don't, they could be marginalized.

Pilots are the linchpin in the contracts, because of their pay and status (and a proposed equity stake of 13.5 percent for their group alone). That's even more reason for other groups to swallow hard and approve.

"My initial reaction to the company's last best final offer was, 'Oh, hell no!' And at first I thought I could never endorse this," Marcus Gluth, vice president of the Association of Professional Flight Attendants, wrote to members last week. "The more I read and understood the offer and the realities we face as a union, the easier my yes vote became."

In addition to hostility toward management, there's some confusion about the contracts, and that's understandable. Union leaders have been so adamant in support of a merger that some workers want to vote for US Air.
Many also don't want to give any wins to Horton. They're afraid that his team will take credit and champion the labor deals for its own agenda.

That sentiment was summed up in a question on the Allied Pilots Association website:
"How does supporting the tentative agreement not end up supporting Tom Horton and the 'stand-alone plan?' It seems like reverse logic to me."

What a new contract would do is take labor issues off the table, the union said. And that has to happen in order for management to submit a reorganization plan -- and for US Air and others to counter with their own ideas.
In short, the path to a merger goes through an American contract first.

It's a bit counter-intuitive, but workers don't have the option to vote for a US Air deal at the moment. Unsecured creditors want a stand-alone plan first, to both weigh that option and serve as the baseline to measure other proposals.

Here's one more way to think of it: New union contracts will shift the focus from labor to management.
With one side resolved, it will be the other's turn in the bankruptcy spotlight. That's a detailed review many American stakeholders are eager to see.

 

[TWU informer]

VOTE NO!

 

[reclineaholic]

I will vote yes tuesday because I believe the LBO2 to be the best deal we will get under the circumstances.

The APA, APFA and the TWU all seem to agree that we should try to avoid abrogation. The unions that have gone before us in bankruptcy have nearly all voted to avoid abrogation.

I don't trust the TWU or AA's management because I know they have lied to us in the past and I suspect they are making under the table deals right now but allowing them to abrogate our contract will give them even more power over us. What contractural article will we reference to file a grievance if our contract is abrogated? What would stop the company from firing would be union leaders for disrupting labor if we were to try to have a job action when our contract is abrogated? The company has given their word to only impose the mar. 22 term sheets if they win the right to abrogate but I do not trust them.

If we vote NO we will send the same TWU negotiating team back to get us a better deal.... Why would I think they could do better next time? The company will amost certainly win the right to abrogate and it will use it's power of abrogation to instill fear in the membership, we will probably vote in a worse contract after they have beat us down.

Is this fear? Maybe, but a deer that is not afraid of a hunter will be eaten.

Even though I will be voting YES if the majority of the membership votes NO I will stand with the majority because unity is the only thing that gives unions power.

BTW I have never voted yes on a contract before and I am proud to have been one of the IAM union members that stopped Lorenzo in 1989.