Why I Voted Yes

[comatose]

Agreed 100%

Nice to see you changed your vote.

 

[AC Tynker]

Maybe you should get more specific if you want someone to understand. All you are doing is attacking individuals and your message is not coming through as a result.

What agenda on this "Why I Voted Yes" thread are you trying to bring forward? Something other than the vote, but the vote is the topic here.

What common agenda do you feel I have the ability to control, advance, or destroy as you claim?

I am talking about what we have hashed through before and then you put me on ignore. Makes no difference what thread we are in they all get hi-jacked anyway. What I am referring to as a common agenda is just Unity in general. I'm not implying that you have any magic control it's just that you seem to enjoy or whatever the correct terminology being involved in a cause. I can see what is wrong but I have no idea how to fix it and like I have typed before a new Union isn't even going to scratch the surface. The Lawyers at the first BK meeting we had put it out there in plain english that the company will prey on fragmentation of a membership which I believe is happening. What really irked me was reading your Cult post and the example you gave of doing TA meetings on company time. I was told you had that explained you in the Turbine Building TA meeting but yet you try to make a mockery out of everything it seems is what most of your efforts seem to be put into.

If you hadn't thrown yourself out there as a potential future leader I would probably see you as any other disgruntled poster but you go from being non-confrontational, respecting peoples decisions and votes and protesting views to posting examples of your Cult post and I am calling a bs on all of it.

 

[Show me the money]

I am talking about what we have hashed through before and then you put me on ignore. Makes no difference what thread we are in they all get hi-jacked anyway. What I am referring to as a common agenda is just Unity in general. I'm not implying that you have any magic control it's just that you seem to enjoy or whatever the correct terminology being involved in a cause. I can see what is wrong but I have no idea how to fix it and like I have typed before a new Union isn't even going to scratch the surface. The Lawyers at the first BK meeting we had put it out there in plain english that the company will prey on fragmentation of a membership which I believe is happening. What really irked me was reading your Cult post and the example you gave of doing TA meetings on company time. I was told you had that explained you in the Turbine Building TA meeting but yet you try to make a mockery out of everything it seems is what most of your efforts seem to be put into.

If you hadn't thrown yourself out there as a potential future leader I would probably see you as any other disgruntled poster but you go from being non-confrontational, respecting peoples decisions and votes and protesting views to posting examples of your Cult post and I am calling a bs on all of it.

The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results. We have the company offering the same old contract and the union saying this is the best we can do. We need to first get rid of this union and then this current management with a merger. Unless both are gone, we are doomed to be stuck in continuous loop with nothing ever changing for us

 

[Frank Szabo]

The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results.
...snip

In our case, we (collectively - even those retired) treated the democracy afforded us by our representation as a spectator sport.

"I'll do this and that, brother - just put me in office", was a line no doubt heard many times in the past 40 years. All the promises to take care of things - they did exactly that - their things. It's not much different than our country and the 535 piles of yak crap in DC - they're taking pretty good care of themselves.

It doesn't matter what name goes over the door. What matters is the control of the membership over their representation and that was voted away long before most of us were hired at AA. Anything other than a small organization will be like AFMA in that to recall a National Officer, a certain percentage must sign a petition to do so. In other words, if that officer has less that that percentage (quorum) mad at him, his/her job is safe.

As far as any control over the IBT; Yeah. Right. We've already got that.

Even if our representation does get changed, how long will it be before the membership falls back into their old habits, thinking someone else is going to do their job for them and the union/whatever runs amok again as has the TWU when enabled years ago?

Personally, I don't believe the majority of the mechanic and related at AA have the stomach to keep nipping the heels of those running the representation, however - I'm always open to being proven wrong.

 

[TWU informer]

I am talking about what we have hashed through before and then you put me on ignore. Makes no difference what thread we are in they all get hi-jacked anyway. What I am referring to as a common agenda is just Unity in general. I'm not implying that you have any magic control it's just that you seem to enjoy or whatever the correct terminology being involved in a cause. I can see what is wrong but I have no idea how to fix it and like I have typed before a new Union isn't even going to scratch the surface. The Lawyers at the first BK meeting we had put it out there in plain english that the company will prey on fragmentation of a membership which I believe is happening. What really irked me was reading your Cult post and the example you gave of doing TA meetings on company time. I was told you had that explained you in the Turbine Building TA meeting but yet you try to make a mockery out of everything it seems is what most of your efforts seem to be put into.

If you hadn't thrown yourself out there as a potential future leader I would probably see you as any other disgruntled poster but you go from being non-confrontational, respecting peoples decisions and votes and protesting views to posting examples of your Cult post and I am calling a bs on all of it.

So you blame me personally for the problem, but do not know how to fix it and have no ideas yourself?

I feel certain that if I was to die, the problem would still exist. How do you fix something that is wrong and broken if you have to remain in a predetermined definition of "unity" which in your definition apparently means that you cannot speak out against the wrong? The TWU structure and the leadership that is appointed in exchange for dirty deeds is the head of the snake. Sure there would be a lenghty process to erase the divisions and the apathy created by that structure. Unity in general is virtually impossible when the company and the Union are content to work together on agreements that are designed to obtain a narrow 1% margin of victory. The whole idea with them both is the get just enough votes passage. That in itself causes division as we will witness the haves and the have nots. I put years into the TWU, in the 1980's being what is called a "good union member", all of the same divisions were present then, just as they are now.

I am not the problem, the problem is in the TWU Consitution that has created an Insistutional Political monster than cannot be controlled by the so-called Supreme Authority (the membership). You have the advantage of knowing my identity, so all of my known character flaws are open targets for you and the others that know my identity. If I knew who you were, I would personally spend the time to share with you my ideas, and reasons for doing what I am doing, and why the TWU cannot be fixed, and needs to be replaced. That is too much information and history to sit here and type out for you. It is more of a book that an internet post that needs to be written. It requires communication that is more effeicient than this forum offers. I spend alot of time communicating with individuals face to face, and I respect their right to disagree with my opinions, my history with the TWU, and my ideas for change.

Bottom line the way I see it, I am actively working on what I think will correct or fix the problem. You admit that you have no ideas how to fix it, but admit there is a problem. Until you come with a solution, then being anti TWU Informer (Dave) is not going to help you with your desired change.

If you care to learn more about my ideas, my historical knowledge of the TWU, the proof that the TWU cannot be changed, and why I personally chose this path to advocate change then PM me and I will meet with you. But I am not going to be able to type out that information or that message here on this forum. If I were to become willing to type that all out. I would sit down and write a book about the TWU history that I have lived and why so many are seeking a change of union representation. This offer goes to anyone reading this post. If you are willing to meet and discuss this like men, then PM me and I will come to you.

What I find is that most TWU and/or Teamsters supporters that are anti-AMFA, and even anti-Me, cannot even sit down like adult men and debate even the simple points relating to Union Constitutions, Labor Law, Labor and Politics, Grievance Handling, History of the TWU. Instead they are just ate up with fear of change, and use the same arguements that I see you presenting here. You appear to be interested in what is going on, but will remain one sided until the communication and information from both sides is in front of you to view.

I will spend whatever time with you personally discussing these issues. But I will need to meet you, know who you are. If you are unable to do it as men so that everything is equal as far as politics goes, then you remain wasting your time attacking and blaming me, and your union will still have no unity. If you do not even have it within you to allow me to meet you personally, then I will assume you have more to hide than just your identity. I can and will keep your identity unkown here. Your choice.

The expanation of the company paid T/A meetings was that the TWU asked for permission and the company granted it because "nobody will go to the Union Meeting". Not only is company Union Meetings a violation of Federal Law, it is also not going to fix the problem we have with unity. I had to leave that meeting I attended due to an ERT alert page out. I happen to take that service to be more important than a room full members being guided by liars. But I have been told I was not the only one that called BS on the claim that Labor Cost is the problem while AA is willing to pay for Union Meetings on company time. The reason nobody goes to Union Meetings is because the TWU has zero credibility with those members that have been around awhile. Nobody will waste their personal time to go listen to proven liars. I make a mockery out of that because both legally and politically that is a mockery of unionism in itself.

The biggest problem I have with unity building ideas is the company/union alliance or farce and the fact that the TWU is not just your Union, they are actually Politically running your maintenance base into the ground via the company/union alliance that has been created. So you know, there is suppose to be a division between the Union and the Company. What we have is a divisison between the Union Member and the Company/Union alliance. It used to be the Union against the Company. Now it is the Union Members against the Company/Union Alliance. That is not the way it is suppose to be if you want "UNITY" overall.

As far as you attacking me because I said I would be willing to be a leader. You would have a vote on that matter, just as you have a vote on this T/A. You could even go out and actively campaign in opposition to me wanting to be a leader like you are already doing now.

I fully expect there to be opposition to change, accountability, and professional standards. That is fine, you and others will vote on which solution or direction for a future you would like. And the reason the Cult post upset you is becuase there is truth in it. You really should consider becoming a leader with a solution, instead of just someone that attacks the one who has already started down that path.

I have no doubt that I can answer this question for you, but you can answer if you like.

Are you willing to stand up and be a leader and are you willing to allow your identity to be known while you post your opinions here like I have done?

 

[Strake]

So you blame me personally for the problem, but do not know how to fix it. I feel certain that if I was to die, the problem would still exist. The TWU structure and the leadership that is appointed in exchange for dirty deeds is the head of the snake. Sure there would be a lenghty process to erase the divisions and the apathy created by that structure. Unity in general is virtually impossible when the company and the Union are content to work together on agreements that are designed to obtain a narrow 1% margin of victory. The whole idea with them both is the get just enough votes passage. That in itself causes division as we will witness the haves and the have nots. I put years into the TWU, in the 1980's being what is called a "good union member", all of the same divisions were present then, just as they are now.

I am not the problem, the problem is in the TWU Consitution that has created an Insistutional Political monster than cannot be controlled by the so-called Supreme Authority (the membership). You have the advantage of knowing my identity, so all of my known character flaws are open targets for you and the others that know my identity. If I knew who you were, I would personally spend the time to share with you my ideas, and reasons for doing what I am doing, and why the TWU cannot be fixed, and needs to be replaced. That is too much information and history to sit here and type out for you. It is more of a book that an internet post that needs to be written. It requires communication that is more effeicient than this forum offers. I spend alot of time communicating with individuals face to face, and I respect their right to disagree with my opinions, my history with the TWU, and my ideas for change.

Bottom line the way I see it, I am actively working on what I think will correct or fix the problem. You admit that you have no ideas how to fix it, but admit there is a problem. Until you come with a solution, then being anti TWU Informer (Dave) is not going to help you with your desired change.

If you care to learn more about my ideas, my historical knowledge of the TWU, the proof that the TWU cannot be changed, and why I personally chose this path to advocate change then PM me and I will meet with you. But I am not going to be able to type out that information or that message here on this forum. If I were to become willing to type that all out. I would sit down and write a book about the TWU history that I have lived and why so many are seeking a change of union representation.

What I find is that most TWU and/or Teamsters supporters that are anti-AMFA, and even anti-Me, cannot even sit down like adult men and debate even the simple points relating to Union Constitutions, Labor Law, Labor and Politics, Grievance Handling, History of the TWU. Instead they are just ate up with fear of change, and use the same arguements that I see you presenting here. You appear to be interested in what is going on, but will remain one sided until the communication and information from both sides is in front of you to view.

I will spend whatever time with you personally discussing these issues. But I will need to meet you, know who you are. If you are unable to do it as men so that everything is equal as far as politics goes, then you remain wasting your time attacking me, and your union will still have no unity. Your choice.

The expanation of the company paid T/A meetings was that the TWU asked for permission and the company granted it because "nobody will go to the Union Meeting". Not only is company Union Meetings a violation of Federal Law, it is also not going to fix the problem we have with unity. I had to leave that meeting I attended due to an ERT alert page out. I happen to take that service to be more important than a room full members being guided by liars. But I have been told I was not the only one that called BS on the claim that Labor Cost is the problem while AA is willing to pay for Union Meetings on company time. The reason nobody goes to Union Meetings is because the TWU has zero credibility with those members that have been around awhile. Nobody will waste their personal time to go listen to proven liars. I make a mockery out of that because both legally and politically that is a mockery of unionism in itself.

The biggest problem I have with unity building ideas is the company/union alliance or farce and the fact that the TWU is not just your Union, they are actually Politically running your maintenance base into the ground via the company/union alliance that has been created. So you know, there is suppose to be a division between the Union and the Company. What we have is a divisison between the Union Member and the Company/Union alliance. It used to be the Union against the Company. Now it is the Union Members against the Company/Union Alliance. That is not the way it is suppose to if you want "UNITY" overall.

As far as you attacking me because I said I would be willing to be a leader. You will have a vote on that matter, just as you have a vote on this T/A. I fully expect there to be opposition to change, accountability, and professional standards. That is fine, you and others will vote on which solution or direction for a future you would like. And the reason the Cult post upset you is becuase there is truth in it.

I have no doubt that I can answer this question for you, but you can answer if you like.

Are you willing to stand up and be a leader and are you willing to allow your identity to be known while you post your opinions here like I have done?

I'm still voting YES.

 

[TWU informer]

I'm still voting YES.

And I am still voting NO.

Thanks for voting and not being apathetic.

 

[aapitbull]

I'm still voting YES.

Hoton/Little!! Thank you and if you have less than 20yrs seniority it is time to look for a job if the yes votes win.

 

[Tex-Mech]

In our case, we (collectively - even those retired) treated the democracy afforded us by our representation as a spectator sport.

"I'll do this and that, brother - just put me in office", was a line no doubt heard many times in the past 40 years. All the promises to take care of things - they did exactly that - their things. It's not much different than our country and the 535 piles of yak crap in DC - they're taking pretty good care of themselves.

It doesn't matter what name goes over the door. What matters is the control of the membership over their representation and that was voted away long before most of us were hired at AA. Anything other than a small organization will be like AFMA in that to recall a National Officer, a certain percentage must sign a petition to do so. In other words, if that officer has less that that percentage (quorum) mad at him, his/her job is safe.

As far as any control over the IBT; Yeah. Right. We've already got that.

Even if our representation does get changed, how long will it be before the membership falls back into their old habits, thinking someone else is going to do their job for them and the union/whatever runs amok again as has the TWU when enabled years ago?

Personally, I don't believe the majority of the mechanic and related at AA have the stomach to keep nipping the heels of those running the representation, however - I'm always open to being proven wrong.

I was just looking at the TWU maintenance local bylaws from around the system, and I found 3 that have a recall provision in it, those being 562, 565, and 567. If another local has it that I didn't see, I do apologize for excluding you. But the point being that where the membership has the ability to recall, their leaders are much more active and responsive to the needs of the membership. There is hope if the entire structure had a recall provision for everyone who works under it.

 

[Tulsamechanic9]

I am still voting YES i'm betting after all this dialogue not one single person has changed their mind of how their going to vote on the contract or what Union they are going to support, If anyone can point to a post where someone actually said they changed their minds on either issue so that I can be proven wrong that would be great, the people who come to this forum are not on the fence they have already made up their minds & just come here to debate the issue because they enjoy debating, anyone who believes their changing anyone's mind on here is delusional, I do think there are apathetic individuals at the base who are confused on how to vote though and the union meetings are helping them make up their minds.

 

[Tex-Mech]

I do think there are apathetic individuals at the base who are confused on how to vote though and the union meetings are helping them make up their minds.

So when the apathetic realize that they were lied to in those union meetings, are they still going to be apathetic?

 

[1AA]

I am still voting YES i'm betting after all this dialogue not one single person has changed their mind of how their going to vote on the contract or what Union they are going to support, If anyone can point to a post where someone actually said they changed their minds on either issue so that I can be proven wrong that would be great, the people who come to this forum are not on the fence they have already made up their minds & just come here to debate the issue because they enjoy debating, anyone who believes their changing anyone's mind on here is delusional, I do think there are apathetic individuals at the base who are confused on how to vote though and the union meetings are helping them make up their minds.

I spoke to at least two guys that have changed their minds (Yes to NO). But they do not post here or are a member of local 514. I guess to you that does not count.
Only local 514 is all that matters to you.

 

[TWU informer]

I am still voting YES i'm betting after all this dialogue not one single person has changed their mind of how their going to vote on the contract or what Union they are going to support, If anyone can point to a post where someone actually said they changed their minds on either issue so that I can be proven wrong that would be great, the people who come to this forum are not on the fence they have already made up their minds & just come here to debate the issue because they enjoy debating, anyone who believes their changing anyone's mind on here is delusional, I do think there are apathetic individuals at the base who are confused on how to vote though and the union meetings are helping them make up their minds.

I agree. Most have their opinions and are not going to be changed.
It is the sheep herd that follow the others to pasture that you are after.

Who knows what result the company paid union meetings at the Tulsa Base had.
In my opinion, there were many who would not go spend the time to read the T/A themselves.
Once they were in a meeting and the truth of the far reaching concessions was heard and in their hands, many NO Voters were created from that, just as many Yes Voters were created from the one-sided fear mongering. And even thought that was probably a wash in count for both sides, it doesn't change the fact that this activity is against Federal Law. What will be interesting is that if this gets ratified, do the Line Locals file a lawsuit and an injenction stopping the signing because they were not allowed to have company paid union meetings to express their position on the T/A. Because AA could be in seroius trouble if and when that happens.

I heard both coming from the meetings, those that decided to vote no, and those that decided to vote yes.
And then the Dan McCoy's of the world who did change their minds. You wanted an example of someone changing their minds? Dan McCoy changed from a NO to a YES once Sam Cirri convinced him the the Line AMT was his enemy and the line AMT is a boogie man under the bed that will get him if he voted no. So you are indeed wrong, someone did post that they changed their mind, but only one that I know of.

 

[1AA]

It is sad that the union and the company are spreading the Line hates Tulsa and Tulsa hates the line. The members themselves are victims of this unethical practice.
Most see right through it. Others believe it. Last time I checked my License it had two ratings on it. Airframe and Powerplant. They work perfect together. It did not say Line OR Overhaul. Get real people we all do the same job.

 

[Tex-Mech]

And then the Dan McCoy's of the world who did change their minds. You wanted an example of someone changing their minds? Dan McCoy changed from a NO to a YES once Sam Cirri convinced him the the Line AMT was his enemy and a boogie man under the bed that will get him if he voted no. So you are indeed wrong, someone did post that they changed their mind, but only one that I know of.

But yet Sam Siri is a fleet service clerk who has no vote or interest in this fight. His only concern is for the job he secured for himself with LBO2. Sam is also is out of a job with a change of unions. Anyone who would listen to someone who is not affected by this vote is an idiot in my opinion. That be it the international, management, or Siri.