which will it be? the ta or term sheet?

[TWU informer]

Ultimately, § 1113 is designed to force the debtor-employer and its unionized labor constituencies to resolve their disputes by agreement by a process of goodfaith negotiations.

In re Delta Air Lines, Inc., 359 B.R. 468, 475, 47 Bankr. Ct. Dec. (CRR) 168 (Bankr. S.D. N.Y. 2006) (Hardin, J.) (“ection 1113 is that, as noted in the legislative history and the case law, the statute is designed to force the debtor-employer and its unionized labor constituencies to resolve their disputes by agreement by a process of good faith negotiations”).

 

[TWU informer]

Here is a worthwile read of a PDF regarding S1113 and S1114


Click Here to Read More

 

[Mr Red]

What meeting Friday?

So they dont contest it, but they will take it to the Judge? The contract is clear and the term sheets do not allow for change here.
If AA wanted my trust account to be part of the 1113 process, then they should have placed it in the term sheet for contract modification.

Can you say Paradox.

The fund reserves are in a Trust in mine and yours name, they don't even belong to AA to being with.

565 meeting

 

[Bob Owens]

At our meeting friday we were told a different story.We were told the company does not contest the pre fund match money being returned
they are going to let the judge decide if its returned to participents or kept to continue paying current retirees medical.As far as I'm concerned I want my match
back.As usual the TWU is probably the problem!!!

No they "agreed" to let the 1114 committee decide what to do with OUR money. So they will make a proposal for say $10 million (of our money)to be spread out to the retirees if they agree not to contest termination, which they would lose anyway, they agree, the company keeps the other $47 million, well only $42 if you figure what they used $5 million for the early out which they hope will get them to the 50% +1.

 

[Bob Owens]

My information comes from Sharon Levine, go ask her Bob.

Well we are hearing different things. Mark Richards repeatedly stated that upon abrogation there is no contract. When was the last time yiu spoke to Sharon? 2005?

 

[Bob Owens]

But here's how I see it playing out...With ALL of us affected, there will be a great number who will play into the fear mongering.
If the T/A or LBO includes saving jobs AT any expense, I believe a good number of people who were definitely going to lose their jobs will vote yes. Let's not forget that not only OH people will be laid off, but throughout the system at line stations as well.
Those at the line stations facing bumping would be a yes vote....
Those also defintitely facing lay off probably would be a yes vote....
A good number of people up to 97 seniority would be a yes vote.
Don't forget all the people hired over the last few years.
It's human nature.. 4500 mechanics can't ALL go to SWA or FedEX or UPS....

And although I agree with your sentiment.....sadly you will find out at the end of the day, a good number of people do not have the stomach for "war" as you put it.
I'm not discounting anything you say, but I see things a little different.

People do not have the stomach for this....And once the RIF numbers finally begin the process of layoffs, then and only then will people realize just how bad this thing is going to be...Up until now, nothing really has changed.

Those who vote Yes in order to save their jobs will actually be consenting to lose their jobs. The language is there to allow them to do as they please-system protection uis gone for everyone. The company is going to contract out what they want either way, the question is do we want to be locked into the lowest pay worst benfits and worst workrules in the industry for another 6 years?

They may not have the stomach for war but whether they fight back or not the company will destroy their lives, at least if we fight we have a chance. Can you really afford another 30% paycut? Figure by the time you add in what you need to put in your 401K to replace the DB pension, the fact your medical will double as well as your deductable, what you have to put away for retiree medical, inflation on everything you buy between now and 2018, or 2022?, and 30% is probaly too low. This concession is on top of but even deeper than what we gave up in 2003.

 

[Bob Owens]

You've got to be kidding right?

Of course you are going to see that. Which is the only reason for the incentive to begin with.

You dont plan to see someone say, "well that's a great offer for me, and I can leave with 40K in my pocket. but since it is screwing somone esle, I will just stay put"

Are you kidding?

Think about what you are hoping for compared to what will happen.

Have to let them know that UAL offered $75k and that their Prefunding is essentially paying for their early out. If they vote it down they dont lose their prefunding and the company may still offer the early out to reduce the RiFs and keep younger workers.

 

[Bob Owens]

I must have missed something.

What is this talk about prefunding reserves, and company match being used to fund an early out?

The company is offering an additional $10k to the regular severance package, they also want to use the company match to our prefunding accounts to strike a deal with the virtually powerless 1114 committee, which represents retirees. Knowing how this company operates the Early out will not cost them a thing, they will strike a deal with the 1114 committee that allows the company to walk away with most of our money, anything the 1114 committee gets is a bonus for them, if by offering the Early out they get enough Yes votes for the contract to pass they not only get the concessions they want so they can make $3 billion a year in profits, they get us to fund it! In affect, they would be using our prefunding money to buy yes votes.

 

[Bob Owens]

I dont have the language either but was under the assumption that AA was making it clear in the last best offer that it would be used for previous retirees or soon to be retirees medical. So, yes we should wait and see the language. Except it appears to be not agreed on because AA is apparently manipulating the language....as usual. Which goes back to my point about how stupid is was for James C Little to give a May 14th deadline for results via Lawyers in Court before the Judge.

You know as well as I to never fill in what AA intends to do unless its explicit. We asked them about what the plans were and Burdette refused to answer. He said that will be decided by the 1114 committee, three company and two Union I believe. He never said the funds would be used for retirees and legally they have no claim to those funds, those funds are ours. So if we agree we are essentailly turning them over to the company as if we left the plan. They could take a portion of those funds to make themselves look good but my guess is they will simply use them to pay whatever they are legally obligated to pay, claim they used them to benefit TWU employees and thats it.

The prefunding issue is a major flaw in their term Sheet strategy and should be grounds to block abrogation, or an appeal if they do abrogate. The company is asking the court to go beyond its realm and asking the court not to relieve them of debts or obligations but to recover funds that the company already paid out to the trust. Is no different than asking the Judge to allow them to take money from our 401K accounts. The language was specifically designed and agreed to in order to protect us in the event of a BK filing. Of course the company is banking on getting that 50% plus 1. Their strategy is pretty simple, get us to keep looking at other things, such as saving jobs, then after they take this stuff, they take the jobs anyway.

 

[amtide]

There is an Early out but its funded by giving up the company match from prefunding. Some of the older guys have more in the fund than the early out would givve them.

They are going to end the prefunding, in that case I want my contributions plus the company match so I can pay for a health insurance to bridge to the medicare. I want to manage that money my self. I do not remember authorizing TWU to negotiate my part of the prefunding. Can the union do that?

 

[MCI transplant]

<_< ------ And how will ObamaCare effect all this? Assuming it totally goes into effect!

 

[CMH_GSE]

The company is offering an additional $10k to the regular severance package, they also want to use the company match to our prefunding accounts to strike a deal with the virtually powerless 1114 committee, which represents retirees. Knowing how this company operates the Early out will not cost them a thing, they will strike a deal with the 1114 committee that allows the company to walk away with most of our money, anything the 1114 committee gets is a bonus for them, if by offering the Early out they get enough Yes votes for the contract to pass they not only get the concessions they want so they can make $3 billion a year in profits, they get us to fund it! In affect, they would be using our prefunding money to buy yes votes.

Maybe you could source your info on this because it doesn't jive with what we have in our contract:

Employee contributions made to prefund retiree health care coverage will be held in trust exclusively for the purpose of providing retiree health care. If an employee dies or is terminated prior to retirement, the employee or his beneficiary will receive the value of his contributions plus a pro rata share of trust fund net earnings.

The Trust will maintain a separate account to hold reserves equal to the Participants' prefunding contributions, Employer prefunding contributions, and investment earnings attributable thereto reserved for retiree welfare benefits due to Participants under the terms of the Plan and to pay administrative expenses associated with such Program. In the event of termination of the Plan and/or Trust, the balance of the reserves will be distributed as provided in Article 41(n)(8). In no event will these reserves be used for payment of any expenses associated with the active employees medical benefits program or for any other purpose except those identified with respect to retiree welfare benefits in Article 41(n), the Trust Agreement, and the Plan

 

[Mr Red]

They are going to end the prefunding, in that case I want my contributions plus the company match so I can pay for a health insurance to bridge to the medicare. I want to manage that money my self. I do not remember authorizing TWU to negotiate my part of the prefunding. Can the union do that?

You will get your part of contribution,its the matching company part thats in dispute.
To me its cut and dry, they want to end prefunding,give us the match back to.
The money was set aside for each account.

 

[TWU informer]

The Company Prefunding Match is in a Trust Account with your name on it. It does not even belong to American Airlines, it belongs to your trust.

Even asking Burdette what AA intends to do with it implies something other.

TWU should have never asked that question as it leaves the company thinking there was an open understanding. There was never a question like that to ask to begin with. This is exactly why the language required a trust to begin with, to insure your account was safe from Unscrupulous greedy bastards. The intent of the language is clear.

If I do not get my trust account refund, I will file a lawsuit to obtain the balance of my Trust. Is the TWU fails to represent my interest in this account, they will become party to this lawsuit also.

Anything else is unacceptable.

It does not belong to the 1114 Committee, it does not belong to future retirees, it belongs to me. It is not even part of the BK process.

 

[CMH_GSE]

The contract is pretty clear we get it all back + interest.