USAPA Loses DFR Case!/US pilot thread

[exB717Flyer]

Does anybody grasp that unless cooler heads prevail the pilot group could cause US to fold.

I hope you're addressing USAPA. This is a war they perpetuated.

This is one of those times when being right or winning might not be such a good thing.

Understand that to a large degree the East has already won. They have all the E190 seats (the West is entitled to 1/3), they have all the growth 757 seats (the West is entitled to some seats), they upgraded hundreds of FO's after the merger (the West has only downgraded), and so on. This verdict doesn't change any of that. They sought to delay the Nicolau award and they've succeeded. For the West, this is just damage control.

The East pilots can keep the Nicolau ball in the air indefinitely simply by failing to ratify any contract presented.

The judge knows this. Hopefully between the injuction he issues shortly and the damages trial to come USAPA will be spanked hard enough into doing the right thing.

Yes it's a scorched earth policy but it could happen

To paraphrase Sully, doing the right thing has consequences.

 

[EastUS]

The East pilots can keep the Nicolau ball in the air indefinitely simply by failing to ratify any contract presented. As long as the East has a solid block of voting members they are somewhat in the drivers seat and they can drag this on to the point that most of the senior east pilots are retired and render the Nic list obsolete.

Indeed. It's extremely clear that zero compromise of any sort would even possibly come from the west. No news there.

Honestly Piney; What's the actual, measurable downside for those out east to do just as you observed...versus willingly obliterating their seniority entirely? The company's survival, very clearly, doesn't require any combined work group within the pilot ranks. Any even fantasized benefits from supposed "solidarity" with the west minority are just that = fantasies. However laughable the west finds it; The economic conditions of the east group are likely to improve within a year or so. The despicable notion of placing people that were literally 6-8 years old when many out east began flying for the earlier incarnations of US, as "senior" to the latter is no less evil because of an initial courtroom outcome....in much the same way that OJay's no less guilty, even though he was found otherwise in court.

The west, as per usual, offers nothing. Why should the east people willingly throw themselves down on the sword of their own, as yet existent, seniority?

 

[Piedmont1984]

To all USAPA members in good standing.

I have sent a letter to our leadership team urging them to pause now and get a "Position Report".

Poll the rank and file by whatever means necessary and available. Find out what the pilot group wants to do. Find out if sentiment has shifted in any way. The poll should answer one question and ask another.

1- What are the most realistic expectations - not optimistic expectations - in terms of time, money and prospects in pursuing the appeal process.

2- Does the membership feel it is time to change our strategy going forward; accept what we have been saddled with in terms of the Nic award and begin to focus on contract. Perhaps, depending on the court imposed remedy, some small measures to mitigate the full impact of the Nic.

I will do whatever the majority decides to do. But I think we need to hear from the majority. Our attorneys and union leaders have repeatedly assured us that this trial had no merit, it would not get to trial, the west could not win. I remember the same assurances during the arbitration process.

I am getting really tired of attorneys.

 

[autofixer]

Amen.

 

[HPearlyretiree]

Just read the news...I'm stuck in meetings all day, can't wait to read it all.

This is good! USAPA was formed solely to get out of its agreements, it was pretty transparent, and shame on them.

Time for the pilots to work together and get a contract without all the union goons and thugs and rhetoric.

 

[electricjet98]

1- What are the most realistic expectations - not optimistic expectations - in terms of time, money and prospects in pursuing the appeal process.

2- Does the membership feel it is time to change our strategy going forward; accept what we have been saddled with in terms of the Nic award and begin to focus on contract. Perhaps, depending on the court imposed remedy, some small measures to mitigate the full impact of the Nic.

I will do whatever the majority decides to do. But I think we need to hear from the majority. Our attorneys and union leaders have repeatedly assured us that this trial had no merit, it would not get to trial, the west could not win. I remember the same assurances during the arbitration process.

I am getting really tired of attorneys.

Nice to hear from you again.

I would like to make at least one change to #2, regarding who to poll. By polling only the membership, USAPA leadership will be simply validating their current actions; it's like "preaching to the choir"! They need to realize, one and for all, that their responsibility as the CBA is to represent all pilots in a fair manner; both members and non-members.

 

[JoeLurker]

If USAPA obeys the judge's orders (whatever they may be) and realizes the appeal will go nowhere then yes, we can move on now. Otherwise, the fight will continue.

Okay guys.........one thing you all seem to forget.......ANY contract that might come down MUST still be voted on by the pilots. And NO east pilot will EVER vote yes on a contract that includes the NIC. PERIOD!

We are in for a long battle anyway you look at it as long as the NIC is hanging over us.

 

[Pi brat]

To all USAPA members in good standing.

I have sent a letter to our leadership team urging them to pause now and get a "Position Report".

Poll the rank and file by whatever means necessary and available. Find out what the pilot group wants to do. Find out if sentiment has shifted in any way. The poll should answer one question and ask another.

1- What are the most realistic expectations - not optimistic expectations - in terms of time, money and prospects in pursuing the appeal process.

2- Does the membership feel it is time to change our strategy going forward; accept what we have been saddled with in terms of the Nic award and begin to focus on contract. Perhaps, depending on the court imposed remedy, some small measures to mitigate the full impact of the Nic.

I will do whatever the majority decides to do. But I think we need to hear from the majority. Our attorneys and union leaders have repeatedly assured us that this trial had no merit, it would not get to trial, the west could not win. I remember the same assurances during the arbitration process.

I am getting really tired of attorneys.

I think the election of Cleary prevents this. I do not believe that Cleary and a few others in power are capable of being wrong. Look at the press release: "It wasn't our fault!"

The think the remedy the judge gives will be the key to our future.

 

[cubfan]

To all USAPA members in good standing.

I have sent a letter to our leadership team urging them to pause now and get a "Position Report".

Poll the rank and file by whatever means necessary and available. Find out what the pilot group wants to do. Find out if sentiment has shifted in any way. The poll should answer one question and ask another.

1- What are the most realistic expectations - not optimistic expectations - in terms of time, money and prospects in pursuing the appeal process.

2- Does the membership feel it is time to change our strategy going forward; accept what we have been saddled with in terms of the Nic award and begin to focus on contract. Perhaps, depending on the court imposed remedy, some small measures to mitigate the full impact of the Nic.

I will do whatever the majority decides to do. But I think we need to hear from the majority. Our attorneys and union leaders have repeatedly assured us that this trial had no merit, it would not get to trial, the west could not win. I remember the same assurances during the arbitration process.

I am getting really tired of attorneys.

Couldn't agree more, take a step back and breath. I'm on my way to the UK tomorrow, and thought about writing a similar letter. Glad you did. I also am sick of lawyers, it's giving me a sick headache

 

[JoeLurker]

To all USAPA members in good standing.

I have sent a letter to our leadership team urging them to pause now and get a "Position Report".

Poll the rank and file by whatever means necessary and available. Find out what the pilot group wants to do. Find out if sentiment has shifted in any way. The poll should answer one question and ask another.

1- What are the most realistic expectations - not optimistic expectations - in terms of time, money and prospects in pursuing the appeal process.

2- Does the membership feel it is time to change our strategy going forward; accept what we have been saddled with in terms of the Nic award and begin to focus on contract. Perhaps, depending on the court imposed remedy, some small measures to mitigate the full impact of the Nic.

I will do whatever the majority decides to do. But I think we need to hear from the majority. Our attorneys and union leaders have repeatedly assured us that this trial had no merit, it would not get to trial, the west could not win. I remember the same assurances during the arbitration process.

I am getting really tired of attorneys.

Here is my vote......if it includes the NIC......I vote not only NO.....but hell NO!

 

[flyboeing737]

Okay guys.........one thing you all seem to forget.......ANY contract that might come down MUST still be voted on by the pilots. And NO east pilot will EVER vote yes on a contract that includes the NIC. PERIOD!

We are in for a long battle anyway you look at it as long as the NIC is hanging over us.

I suggest you educate yourself on what is being discussed in court during the remedy phase. The judge is not going to allow a remedy that will allow the majority to disenfranchise the minority.

 

[cactusflyer]

I wonder if that will hold true once it is realized that snap backs won't happen for the east pilots? I don't have
an interest in this fight, I'm just wondering out loud. I guess if they are willing to keep working for less pay for as long as it takes, then that is their deal. Can't say I would blame them, I know for many, if not all of us airline people, seniority is the holy grail. While it was disappointing that our (FA) list is merged by D.O.H. I accepted it a long time ago because it is written that way in our bylaws. It just upsetting to me that the pilots fight is impacting our ability to achieve a better quality of life.


If it does go to appeal, I wouldn't hold my breath for the 9th circuit to be the east's saviour in this debacle. Will be very interesting to see what remedy the judges orders.

 

[wopr21]

Amen.

2nd that

I too am tired of being told not only by Alpa but now by USAPA that "they don't have a case we will win" talk.

We thought we had the best case for Nic... obviously we were wrong.. We thought we had the DFR won....obviously we were wrong.

We obviously live in a new era in this journey through life. The sense that time and tenure on the job is now the worth nothing. Hard work doesn't pay anymore.

The era for I want mine now has begun.

If its what the powers at be say is right, then fine. I don't have to agree with them. I will make adjustments and adapt to an ever changing landscape.

I am not in agreement with another assessment that we will be told " We can't loose".


Bottom line is that the lawyers are the ones "winning" in this battle. They convince the defendants they can win and then loose. I would be very cautious next time.

In frustration

wopr

 

[flyboeing737]

Here is my vote......if it includes the NIC......I vote not only NO.....but hell NO!

Don't worry the remedy will probably force NIC to be implemented to prevent this from occurring.

 

[N924PS]

Okay guys.........one thing you all seem to forget.......ANY contract that might come down MUST still be voted on by the pilots. And NO east pilot will EVER vote yes on a contract that includes the NIC. PERIOD!

We are in for a long battle anyway you look at it as long as the NIC is hanging over us.

I disagree.

If USAPA would exert as much effort crafting a contract that mitigates the Nic financially as they do coming up with lame statements like "fought this battle with both hands behind our back" or "hamstrung by questionable rulings and incorrect instructions", we might actually get a TA that would be approved.

I am weary of pilots fighting pilots when we should finally close ranks and move on. Even absent the Nic, many affected East pilots will retire at 65 years of age as F/O's. Many are having trouble paying their bills on LOA 93 wages and are dipping into retirement/savings accounts to survive.

There are plenty that will vote for a contract, including the Nic, that improves pay, retirement, and work rules that adresses increased longevity pay for first officers.

USAPA's response to the verdict was predictable and disappointing. It even sounds as if it might have been written by Seham himself.