USAPA Loses DFR Case!/US pilot thread

[cleardirect]

There too much money to be made on the ALPA "pilot neutral" gravy-train list. ALPA doesnt keep you on the neutral list when your not "neutral." Thats the conflict of interest. Always wondered why we had to interview them, if theyr so neutral.

Great, more conspiracy theories. More ALPA bogey men. More unproven nonsense.

Nothing false about the DOH list. No matter how you gloat, it wont change the fact that the judge has already "thunk out loud" about possible remedy, if we lose:

But as I think about this at times, Mr. Stevens, it seemed to me that if the plaintiff prevails, the remedy is an injunction that orders the union to negotiate for the Nicolau Award. And I can't think of any other remedy. You had mentioned something about ordering -- something about foregoing a ratification vote. And I'm not sure what you are saying. If all you meant to say is that the Court should order that there be no specific individual ratification vote on the Seniority List, no one is contenting that there is any right to that. So I don't think the Court needs to say that.

Its pretty clear, Clear, where hes coming from as the best you can expect to get. All your sides posts, you ignore judges thunking. Why no comment, Clear?

I have tried to help you understand. You either chose to ignore the facts or are incapable of leaning. Do your own research or be caught by surprise, again.

If we "lose" and get the judges above remedy, so? We put together a TA with Section 22 NICed. It gets voted down a couple times. Meanwhile we appeal. No hurry there. Meanwhile we wait the results of the pay increase arbitration. Meanwhile we get ALL the new A-330 slots (12 in the next 18 months). Meanwhile our oldsters get another 5 years to work, another $1M in pay. Meanwhile we get our $70M, which even the judge thinks out loud he cant take from us. So meanwhile, who cares about your "win?"

Maybe this judge is more clever than either side thought. A loss with the above remedy almost makes a waste of time appealing, almost appeal-proof from a practical side. I say "almost." That remedy is already cause cries of betrayal on some other chat boards. Yeah, we monitor the West Vs West debate. Id post some, but dont think thats allowed here.

Believe the fantasy de jour as you like. My bet is 11:30 Wednesday for the jury verdict. Remedies may be tomorrow they could be as late as July that is an unknown.

Not sure "everyone in the world is telling" us were wrong. Not even the judge or jury has said that, trial is still going on.

"Another couple hundred thousand dollars, two years and another court room is not going to change" the judges thinking-out-loud remedy or Wargockis furlough status by even one day. Hes still looking at another 5 years street time unless we win the arbitrations. How much do you guys owe Harper right now? A couple of good faith TAs turned down by USAPA voting members will force the "class" to realize they need to negotiate if they ever want to see a single contract. When you got a class controlled by five junior pilots, each with theyr own narrow interest, your going to see them put theyr own interest ahead of the class. You can always opt out and start all over again. I cant wait to hear about that "class" meeting. Who gets to vote? Does contributing $1,000 get you 1,000 votes? $5 get you 5 votes?

One good thing to come of all this, you guys have to join and pay up to vote. One aside, I recently flew with a C/O who posts on this board. Neither knew the other posted. After comparing notes and beers, bar talk promise never to reveal each others identity, we had a good chuckle. As he honestly said, with retirement at age 60, he had to vote the $$. But with that additional $1M+, its a different ball game. Steve

More fantasy. Believe what you want. Spread rumors as you like. If you knew anything about the west and how wrong you are about what you are spreading it would be embarrassing.

As to joining. If/when the jury comes back in our favor. Be careful what you wish for.

One last thing. Why has the usapa leadership held on to the fact that they lost the TA arbitration for a week now? Secrets from the membership again. What happened to the open and honest association that was going to be usapa?

 

[HPearlyretiree]

Ya know what Snoop? None of this went down until YOU and YOUR PEERS decided they could not be men/women and live up to the pre-arranged agreement.

Slice it any way you like but not even you can spin that fact...

BTW if I wanted to flip you off I'd invite you to sit on the jumpseat and give you bird there so you'd know with certainty it was me and I meant it.

Amen to that. Both sides made an agreement...binding arbitration.

One side didn't like the results and had to do everything to weenie out of it.

Real men live up to their promises (especially when its in writing, and binding)

 

[Metroyet]

Amen to that. Both sides made an agreement...binding arbitration.

One side didn't like the results and had to do everything to weenie out of it.

Real men live up to their promises (especially when its in writing, and binding)

Yes, but what if the Great and Mighty "Sully" doesn't like it? Well, in his words, he can pick and choose when HIS Integrity "matters".

Pathetic.

 

[cleardirect]

The phrase for the day was. "A deal is a deal"

Unfortunately for Sully, he found the Nicolau deal inconvenient but still had consequences.

Should have listened to his own story of integrity.

 

[hp_fa]

What are your impressions on the appeal process. Length of time, etc.

In general? Here's a primer, although I have never personally been involved with a federal appeal. (I have been involved with appeals in state court.)

First off the appeals process is not an appeal from the jury verdict. The jury is the trier-of-fact. Nothing can change that except the Judge either overturning the verdict under Rule 52(A)(6) or granting a new trial pursuant to Rule 59. So, appeals are filed in connection with alleged errors by the Court in legal or evidenciary rulings. They are limited in length, timing and what may be filed. They are also under strict requirements as to the citing of relevant judicial authority, both primary and secondary. (Authority is primary when it is in the jurisdiction that the court must follow. For example, primary authority for all federal courts are statutory law (enacted or legislative law) or case law. including the US Supreme Court and whatever Federal District the appeal is filed within. (We are in the 9th Circuit.) Any other federal appellate court is secondary authority. The appellate court may look to that court for persuasion, but it is not bound to follow those out-of-jurisdiction opinions. (If this looks complicated trust me, it gets worse.)

Basically, a Notice of Appeal must be filed within 30 days of entry of a judgment by the Court. The party seeking the appeal is known as the appellant. That party may also seek to have the judgment stayed while pending appeal. The responding party is known as the appellee.

OK, the more I answer the deeper this gets. Let's cut this off for now and say it can take a total of over a year. It is very precise work. Will that do for now?

 

[EyeInTheSky]

Amen to that. Both sides made an agreement...binding arbitration.

One side didn't like the results and had to do everything to weenie out of it.

Real men live up to their promises (especially when its in writing, and binding)

Interesting that you mention "weenie". Westie pilots are walking around with stickers on their flight bags of a little boy peeing on the USAPA logo. So, much for "real" men and women.

Later,
Eye

 

[traderjake]

I simply can't even imagine a truly prouder moment for you to have ever happen in your life trader

I take no pride in having to explain to coworkers their unethical and immoral behavior.

Something you'll never understand.

 

[HPearlyretiree]

Interesting that you mention "weenie". Westie pilots are walking around with stickers on their flight bags of a little boy peeing on the USAPA logo. So, much for "real" men and women.

Later,
Eye

I had another word, but it was a bit strong for this board. Had something to do with house cats.

 

[lynyrdskynyrd]

Seham...

Does not ask that the jury find USAPA wise, but that it did not act in bad faith

Now thats funny. Usapa=bad faith, and they don't appear to all that wise either. Who knows what the jury will come up with, though.

 

[BoeingBoy]

Megasnoop,

If you're right that paragraph 3 defines which pilots can fly which airplanes, why does paragraph 4 even exist? It's both superfluous (except the reference to Section 6) and contradicts paragraph 3 - if you're right.

On the other hand, if I'm right paragraph 3 says where the airplanes wll go (both those on the property and orders/options at the time of the TA) while paragraph 4 says who will fly which airplanes. Therefore paragraph 4 is neither superfluous nor contradictory.

Go ahead and try to explain away paragraph 4 all you want. I'll stick with it being there for a reason, and that reason isn't just to contradict paragraph 3.

Jim

 

[EastUS]

Maybe someday I'll get to deny every East USAPA member the jump seat and tell them why.

Do you really want to open that can of worms?

traderjake: "I take no pride in having to explain to coworkers their unethical and immoral behavior.

Something you'll never understand."


You're correct trader. The gleeful denial of jumpseats by any/all perpetual adolescents IS indeed, "something" that I'll "never understand". As for any supposed notions about "unethical and immoral behavior" coming from those who do/would do such clearly childish nonsense.....well?...I think I'll just leave that alone here

 

[EastUS]

BTW if I wanted to flip you off I'd invite you to sit on the jumpseat and give you bird there so you'd know with certainty it was me and I meant it.

Well..That certainly seems like appropriately "professional" conduct within any cockpit = Take a "hostage" and then insult them. I'm very impressed. No matter. Any of you that wish a ride on any aircraft I'm responsible for will never be treated with any such childish contempt.

 

[cubfan]

In general? Here's a primer, although I have never personally been involved with a federal appeal. (I have been involved with appeals in state court.)

First off the appeals process is not an appeal from the jury verdict. The jury is the trier-of-fact. Nothing can change that except the Judge either overturning the verdict under Rule 52(A)(6) or granting a new trial pursuant to Rule 59. So, appeals are filed in connection with alleged errors by the Court in legal or evidenciary rulings. They are limited in length, timing and what may be filed. They are also under strict requirements as to the citing of relevant judicial authority, both primary and secondary. (Authority is primary when it is in the jurisdiction that the court must follow. For example, primary authority for all federal courts are statutory law (enacted or legislative law) or case law. including the US Supreme Court and whatever Federal District the appeal is filed within. (We are in the 9th Circuit.) Any other federal appellate court is secondary authority. The appellate court may look to that court for persuasion, but it is not bound to follow those out-of-jurisdiction opinions. (If this looks complicated trust me, it gets worse.)

Basically, a Notice of Appeal must be filed within 30 days of entry of a judgment by the Court. The party seeking the appeal is known as the appellant. That party may also seek to have the judgment stayed while pending appeal. The responding party is known as the appellee.

OK, the more I answer the deeper this gets. Let's cut this off for now and say it can take a total of over a year. It is very precise work. Will that do for now?

Thanks HP, you blew me way out of the water with that, So am I wrong to assume the appeals court would have to find error with the jury or Judge Wakes ruling based on statutory or case law? There for ordering a new trial? Thanks, I'm confused most of the time, but my level of confusion is at an all time high...........HA

 

[Phoenix]

I take no pride in having to explain to coworkers their unethical and immoral behavior.

Something you'll never understand.

Watching ALPA rig MEC members doesn't count?

 

[cleardirect]

Megasnoop,

If you're right that paragraph 3 defines which pilots can fly which airplanes, why does paragraph 4 even exist? It's both superfluous (except the reference to Section 6) and contradicts paragraph 3 - if you're right.

On the other hand, if I'm right paragraph 3 says where the airplanes wll go (both those on the property and orders/options at the time of the TA) while paragraph 4 says who will fly which airplanes. Therefore paragraph 4 is neither superfluous nor contradictory.

Go ahead and try to explain away paragraph 4 all you want. I'll stick with it being there for a reason, and that reason isn't just to contradict paragraph 3.

Jim

This seems to be an on going problem with a lot of east pilots, understanding legal documents. Merger policy, T/A, final and binding arbitration, just who merger policy applies to, LOA 93 snap backs.

It might be a good idea to hire a good lawyer to tell them what they really say not what the east wants them to say.