USAPA Loses DFR Case!/US pilot thread

[EastUS]

You implied the the West is only entitled to PHX/LAS flying.

I'm asking you since the USAir and PSA pilots brought no 767 flying to the Piedmont merger should they have been fenced off those airplane?

1) I'm not meaning to merely be implying anything. I'm stating as a principle based belief that none...that's NO ONE, within any class/trade/craft has any right to supercede others within that same class/trade/craft, based only some whimsical "sanapshots" or "expectations". To go down roads other than mutual respect based upon time worked provides only the purest of both animosity and chaos...as we have had ring side seats to for over two full years now.

2) As an PSA extract myself; I had no problems whatsoever with the established fences. As an "evil eastie" nowadays; I have NO thoughts that allowing the east to plunder the west would be at ALL appropriate, and fully support any/all conditions and restrictions that would prevent that from happening. I'll note that the last is entirely opposite to what the west seeks to do to the east.

 

[EastUS]

Well..
I was hoping to assist the furloughed.

Agreed. I'd still like to see something positive and helpful done for them, whichever "side" they're on.

 

[EastUS]

Well..
I was hoping to assist the furloughed. .

PS: Do you have any suggestions/ideas as to how we could all revisit this?..and perhaps, come up with something at least? Your observations that some out west may well have simply been victims of circumstance, as is anyone who's ever furloughed, may well not have been considered by most out east. The west vs east animosity index is ridiculous to even graph...and, as a "group"..I honestly just don't have much of any use for them anymore. As individual people within the same profession? = Different issue. I'm a big fan of trying to what's right, (one sleeps better) regardless of any/all external BS. I doubt that we're alone in such thoughts, which I'll "accuse" you of sharing.

 

[EastUS]

I think USAPians live in a different world- certainly not the same one the rest of the planet lives in...

Perhaps..but one not so clearly "relative" in their value structures. I submit, for the consideration of any/all readers, the following from one of your own west-folk. In this fine piece; we find a standard excoriation of USAPA, strangely coupled with a suggestion to the AFA to continue to "stick together"....and..here's the punch line folks...the AFA based everything regarding seniority integration entirely on date of hire. You just can't make this type of stuff up.

luvn737s: "Sounds like AFA isn't doing it's job. Probably indulging themselves in expense account excesses. You FA's need an in-house union. Now take USAPA for example. There's a group that knows how to get things done. Look at their long list of accomplishments:

Uh, on second thought, maybe you ought to stick with AFA and stick together."

 

[BoeingBoy]

Megasnoop,

To include the part you didn't quote - which specifies who flys what:

Pilots on the America West Seniority List will operate the aircraft in the service of America West on the effective date of this Letter of Agreement and pilots on the US Airways Seniority List will operate the aircraft in the service of US Airways on the effective date of this Letter of Agreement. Except as provided in paragraph 6. below, no pilot of either airline will fly as a crewmember on an aircraft listed in Attachment A in the fleet of the other airline.

So East pilots have a specific list of which airplanes only they can fly and the same for West pilots. That list is Attachment A which includes about 210 airplanes for East and about 130 for West after deducting those listed with return dates. Any of the remaining airplanes get returned, that side obviously doesn't fly them, so the numbers would be somewhat less than 210/130 by now.

Nowhere is the rest of what you quoted is there a word about who will fly which airplanes (except Section 6 which applies to the furloughed pilots). Just take the A321's delivered last year - they were delivered to US Airways, they're on the US Airways certificate, America West didn't have A321's on order or option according to Appendix B, but they're flown by West pilots (at least some, I don't know if they all went west or only some of them).

Like I said, time for remedial Transition Agreement 101.

Jim

 

[EastUS]

Like I said, time for remedial Transition Agreement 101.

Jim

Is that anything like "remedial PBGC 101"?

 

[nycbusdriver]

It has been demonstrated that the extension of olive branches is a waste of wood. That being said, it is fundamentally wrong to leave these people that were hired after the merger flapping in the breeze. They were strong armed into their position and had to work in an environment that would have been hostile to their joining. Were any interested? I doubt it. If one or two or more were held hostage by the circumstances that arose, (much like being furlough fodder), I guess we just voted, "oh well, F'em".
Be aware of what we just did. That's all that I am saying. BTW, if a "west" group of some fashion were to get their act together and try to put a separate voluntary furlough COBRA coverage fund together, it looks like you might think about reaching out to ALL USAirways pilots to kick in. Roughly 1/3 of the former "east" voted YES to supporting COBRA coverage. I know that I would, IF they signed on and became current in their dues.
To keep it simple for some that have a difficult time comprehending, I will make a basic observation so that you can tell from your entrenched position if, "HIM GOOD" OR "HIM BAD". I fundamentally believe that the Nic is flawed, allowed a windfall to the "west", therefore did not follow agreed ALPA procedure. The "neutral" pilot reps were ultimately not, as they were aware that the outcome in this decision could affect them in the next merger, they did indeed have a “dog in the race" or whatever aphorism you wish to use. That, however, is irrelevant. Just pointing out my perspective.

I suspect the vote was a reaction to how olive branches are treated by the west. With scorn and ridicule.

Whenever the Pollock olive branch surfaced and the west pilots got a profit sharing check, they would rub our collective east noses in it and remind everybody out east how much more money they make per hour than their east counterparts.

That's fine. Let them dig into their gold lined pockets themselves and help the pilots they strongarmed in an attempt to keep them from joining USAPA. Let's see how well that effort turns out, shall we? They brag that they have the bucks and we don't. Let them put their considerable resources where their considerable mouths are.

 

[prechilill]

That's fine. Let them dig into their gold lined pockets themselves and help the pilots they strongarmed in an attempt to keep them from joining USAPA. Let's see how well that effort turns out, shall we? They brag that they have the bucks and we don't. Let them put their considerable resources where their considerable mouths are.

Spoken like a true USAir union pilot-- who needs unity?

 

[nycbusdriver]

Spoken like a true USAir union pilot-- who needs unity?

Pot, meet Kettle.

 

[Barrister]

Your logic escapes me. How can a person who happens to be younger get the seat first if he is of the same seniority? If the bicycle ride is placed next to an 86 hire who will never see widebody, then the bicyle rider will also not see it while the 86 hire is around.

Nic4us

You don't get the math and here is why. The 86 hire and the bycycle rider next to him won't make widebody Capt......ever.....but where is the 86 hire from THE WEST........he is way more up the list. For example an late 83 hire at U is about 1250 on Nic but his West counter part (DOH) per Nic is about 550.......and can hold 330 Captain NOW even when a gut hire 5 years earlier at U cannot hold it NOW. The question is not who is next to you on the list it is where is the guy who should be next to you per DOH. Thats why I tell you it is not just the F/Os who will vote down ANY TA including nic

Barrister

 

[Pi brat]

Spoken like a true USAir union pilot-- who needs unity?

Are you kidding me? You are one of the poster children for stirring up east anger on this board. What exactly have you done to foster unity? Let me save you the time-NOTHING! You have stirred the pot.

I'm really disappointed that the vote went this way. If any west guys know of a voluntary fund for west furloughed please post the info., I'd like to help.

 

[ussnark]

These pilots are on the front line of furlough and may, or MAY NOT have had the choice to join USAPA without intense external pressure by those powers that be in the west. Even though they knew that they would soon be furloughed, and what that would mean to them and their families they probably tried to hold the line with their coworkers.

Just to let you know, I, as well as my friends, voted for, not that it matters to those who have predispositions otherwise.

While I am totally against any union "preserving jobs", I am not ignorant to the pain our brethren experience. The aspect of "preserving jobs" is the only reason I voted to oust ALPA. It is not the job of any union to deem whether jobs are to be added or subtracted, ever. Why cannot ALPA understand that?

 

[traderjake]

USAPA wasnt broadcasting lists of dues currency. But maybe we should going forward. Not dues-current, no JS.

Maybe someday I'll get to deny every East USAPA member the jump seat and tell them why.

Do you really want to open that can of worms?

 

[Poug Darker]

All of the non dues payers/non members should have section 29 proceedings started asap for their termination. Furloughees who were dues paying members deserve to be on the property instead. Why should the union members help those who are suing their organization? Why financially reward someone who contributes financially to the demise of the union?

 

[Megasnoop]

Megasnoop,

To include the part you didn't quote - which specifies who flys what:

Pilots on the America West Seniority List will operate the aircraft in the service of America West on the effective date of this Letter of Agreement and pilots on the US Airways Seniority List will operate the aircraft in the service of US Airways on the effective date of this Letter of Agreement. Except as provided in paragraph 6. below, no pilot of either airline will fly as a crewmember on an aircraft listed in Attachment A in the fleet of the other airline.

So East pilots have a specific list of which airplanes only they can fly and the same for West pilots. That list is Attachment A which includes about 210 airplanes for East and about 130 for West after deducting those listed with return dates. Any of the remaining airplanes get returned, that side obviously doesn't fly them, so the numbers would be somewhat less than 210/130 by now.

There you go again, Jim, ego never letting you admit you could be wrong. No West pilots ever flew a plane on our Sept 2005 A list. We flew none of theirs. Thats separate operations. What got returned is irrelevant. Who cares? What does it have to do with who flies what in the future?

Nowhere is the rest of what you quoted is there a word about who will fly which airplanes (except Section 6 which applies to the furloughed pilots).

The issue isnt who will fly what aircraft. The issue is who will NOT fly what aircraft until total merger. Separate operations meaning:

3. The aircraft (including orders and options to purchase or lease aircraft) and the operations of each of America West and US Airways will remain separated. A list of all aircraft in the service of each of America West and US Airways on the effective date of this Letter of Agreement is appended as Attachment A; and the fleet plan for the merged airline (by airline and tail number) is appended to this Letter of Agreement as Attachment B.
4. Pilots on the America West Seniority List will operate the aircraft in the service of America West on the effective date of this Letter of Agreement and pilots on the US Airways Seniority List will operate the aircraft in the service of US Airways on the effective date of this Letter of Agreement. Except as provided in paragraph 6. below, no pilot of either airline will fly as a crewmember on an aircraft listed in Attachment A in the fleet of the other airline.

How about this (quoting from you): Except as provided in paragraph 6. below, no pilot of either airline will fly as a crewmember on an aircraft listed in Attachment A in the fleet of the other airline.

DUH! Meaning new-hires or furloughed recalled (at the bottom of the list). Why repeat the obvious?

Just take the A321's delivered last year - they were delivered to US Airways, they're on the US Airways certificate, America West didn't have A321's on order or option according to Appendix B, but they're flown by West pilots (at least some, I don't know if they all went west or only some of them).

Thank ALPA for that before they got voted off the island
(a319=a320=a321 logic to them). Still no wide-bodies have been delivered west and none will be. What part of that are you missing?

Like I said, time for remedial Transition Agreement 101. Jim

Jim, if parker thought he could whipsaw us by putting a 767 or A330 out west, hed done it long ago. He cant. We all know it would only trigger another expedited arbitration he couldnt win. Give it a rest, big guy. Stephano