USAPA Loses DFR Case!/US pilot thread

[Megasnoop]

By their very definition “pilot neutralsâ€￾ They do not have a conflict of interest. You got to chose yours, we picked our from a list. Again in the words of Sully the hero. No dog in this fight. Both neutrals agreed that this award was done correctly and treated everyone fairly. Following the five tenets of the merger policy.

There too much money to be made on the ALPA "pilot neutral" gravy-train list. ALPA doesnt keep you on the neutral list when your not "neutral." Thats the conflict of interest. Always wondered why we had to interview them, if theyr so neutral.

If usapa loses this case this week it is not going to have anything to do with ALPA. This is all usapa babe. The usapa leadership set up the structure, they wrote the c&BL. The interpreted the C&BL, they manufactured a false DOH list and phony C&R. This was all Bradford, Cleary, Mowrey et al.

Nothing false about the DOH list. No matter how you gloat, it wont change the fact that the judge has already "thunk out loud" about possible remedy, if we lose:

But as I think about this at times, Mr. Stevens, it seemed to me that if the plaintiff prevails, the remedy is an injunction that orders the union to negotiate for the Nicolau Award. And I can't think of any other remedy. You had mentioned something about ordering -- something about foregoing a ratification vote. And I'm not sure what you are saying. If all you meant to say is that the Court should order that there be no specific individual ratification vote on the Seniority List, no one is contenting that there is any right to that. So I don't think the Court needs to say that.

Its pretty clear, Clear, where hes coming from as the best you can expect to get. All your sides posts, you ignore judges thunking. Why no comment, Clear?

If usapa loses this what is going to be the excuse? Home advantage? Rigged jury? Better lawyers?

If we "lose" and get the judges above remedy, so? We put together a TA with Section 22 NICed. It gets voted down a couple times. Meanwhile we appeal. No hurry there. Meanwhile we wait the results of the pay increase arbitration. Meanwhile we get ALL the new A-330 slots (12 in the next 18 months). Meanwhile our oldsters get another 5 years to work, another $1M in pay. Meanwhile we get our $70M, which even the judge thinks out loud he cant take from us. So meanwhile, who cares about your "win?"

Maybe this judge is more clever than either side thought. A loss with the above remedy almost makes a waste of time appealing, almost appeal-proof from a practical side. I say "almost." That remedy is already cause cries of betrayal on some other chat boards. Yeah, we monitor the West Vs West debate. Id post some, but dont think thats allowed here.

Could it be that you the east pilots and the leadership of this union were and are wrong. Everyone in the world is telling you that you are wrong. Another couple hundred thousand dollars, two years and another court room is not going to change that.

Not sure "everyone in the world is telling" us were wrong. Not even the judge or jury has said that, trial is still going on.

"Another couple hundred thousand dollars, two years and another court room is not going to change" the judges thinking-out-loud remedy or Wargockis furlough status by even one day. Hes still looking at another 5 years street time unless we win the arbitrations. How much do you guys owe Harper right now? A couple of good faith TAs turned down by USAPA voting members will force the "class" to realize they need to negotiate if they ever want to see a single contract. When you got a class controlled by five junior pilots, each with theyr own narrow interest, your going to see them put theyr own interest ahead of the class. You can always opt out and start all over again. I cant wait to hear about that "class" meeting. Who gets to vote? Does contributing $1,000 get you 1,000 votes? $5 get you 5 votes?

One good thing to come of all this, you guys have to join and pay up to vote. One aside, I recently flew with a C/O who posts on this board. Neither knew the other posted. After comparing notes and beers, bar talk promise never to reveal each others identity, we had a good chuckle. As he honestly said, with retirement at age 60, he had to vote the $$. But with that additional $1M+, its a different ball game. Steve

 

[BoeingBoy]

Meanwhile we get ALL the new A-330 slots (12 in the next 18 months).

I guess you still missed the part of the TA that allows anyone to fly the new airplanes (plus some of those already here) no matter where they're based...

Not saying who the company will have fly them, just what's possible if Doug decided to exert pressure to get the seniority list settled.

Jim

 

[traderjake]

All of which merged by date of hire. Do you even have any supposed point to make here?.

You implied the the West is only entitled to PHX/LAS flying.

I'm asking you since the USAir and PSA pilots brought no 767 flying to the Piedmont merger should they have been fenced off those airplane?

 

[BoeingBoy]

I'm asking you since the USAir and PSA pilots brought no 767 flying to the Piedmont merger should they have been fenced off those airplane?

In theory they were per the fence that Kagel put in the award - at least the positions that existed at the time of the merger (US added more 767's following the merger that were not fenced off due to the interpretation of the fence). The problem was the interpretation of how to implement that fence on the positions PI brought to the merger which allowed a significant portion of the slots to go to US/PSA people while the fence was in place.

That's why I keep saying that even well written C&R's can be undermined by the interpretation of how to put their theory into practice.

Jim

 

[Megasnoop]

I guess you still missed the part of the TA that allows anyone to fly the new airplanes (plus some of those already here) no matter where they're based...

I must have been too busy reading the part that actually said:

3. The aircraft (including orders and options to purchase or lease aircraft) and the operations of each of America West and US Airways will remain separated.

Not saying who the company will have fly them, just what's possible if Doug decided to exert pressure to get the seniority list settled. Jim

Jim, you dont have to say whos flying them. The TA already does, including that nasty little Attachment "A" list.

A list of all aircraft in the service of each of America West and US Airways on the effective date of this Letter of Agreement is appended as Attachment A;

By golly, Attachment "B" includes "orders and options":

and the fleet plan for the merged airline (by airline and tail number) is appended to this Letter of Agreement as Attachment B

Attachment B: Fleet Plan, US (Continued)
A330 N600AU N601 AU N602AU N603AU N604AU N605AU N606AU N607AU N608AU N609AU N610AU N61 IAU N6l2AU N613AU N614AU N617AU

Note to Captains log, were not merged yet! "by airline" That kind of said it all.

And just to make double-sure that one side couldnt fly the other sides old or new equipment, the TA went even further:

"Except as provided in paragraph 6. below, no pilot of either airline will fly as a crewmember on an aircraft listed in Attachment A in the fleet of the other airline."

Just to save time from your busy schedule, paragraph 6 concerns where new-hires/recalled can fly, like at the bottom of the list.

Now what kind of pressure can Doug put on who? If Doug wants this list settled that bad, a 50% pay raise would probably do it. Anyone who didnt think parker was thinking about long-term separate operations didnt notice delivery dates on the A-350s, 2012. Oh, those were ALL on the East attachment B list. Hes kept to the list, both removals and add-ons.

Back to you, big guy! Siegfried.

 

[fodase]

So the east pilots just voted down furlough medical assistance to west furloughs ( by a landslide margin) that would catch up on all their dues. Any questions about the east mentality? didn't think so

 

[Tiger 1050]

Snoop,
I think these airplanes that are coming are post merger orders so we share them. AAA had no orders as they were toast and any previous orders converted to whatever type had to come from the west as we did have airplanes waiting to show up...

On a lighter note I see the fine folks in the east clearly (or should I say cleary) shot down the cobra assistance to the furloughees. It would appear that your fellow east pilots magnanimous demeanor here doesn't seem to transcend the politics. Sad. But hey keep whining about jumpseats or something more important....

 

[Megasnoop]

Snoop,
I think these airplanes that are coming are post merger orders so we share them. AAA had no orders as they were toast and any previous orders converted to whatever type had to come from the west as we did have airplanes waiting to show up...

Stop thinking, start reading. The TA spoke for itself. With the merger, the company got orders. Some were before the merger. As long as we were separate Ops, it was spelled out clearly who got what right down to N numbers. We were "Toast?" Not according to what your own merger attorney told your old MEC on August 30, 2005. Too bad the judge shut out so much of our potential exhibits. The stuff made for appeal. And we did have orders as well as returns out there, btw. We also lost over 30 737s, Airbuses and 757s between the TA signing party and the end of 2006. All accounted for and planned in the TA. Company also stuck with some of our LOA 93 provisions.

On a lighter note I see the fine folks in the east clearly (or should I say cleary) shot down the cobra assistance to the furloughees. It would appear that your fellow east pilots magnanimous demeanor here doesn't seem to transcend the politics. Sad. But hey keep whining about jumpseats or something more important....

The jumpseat thing might had something to do with the vote. But your AWAPPA-Patrol telling potential furloughees not to join was what clinched it. Those on probation didnt even have to pay back dues. They just had to join. Your Wargocky-types joined but didnt pay. And thats our fault? They did it to themselves. USAPA wasnt broadcasting lists of dues currency. But maybe we should going forward. Not dues-current, no JS. Maybe if we see signs of some JS courtesy and improved behavior out West, maybe we can revisit this. Kind of like the old days with ALPA where you had to show your current ALPA card to JS (on EAL, TWA, NWA, Alaska to name a few).

For the record (review my previous posts if you like), I did vote for the assessment and encouraged others to in the PHL crew room. But no east pilot ever jumped on my case for expressing my support. One thing I hope you take away from that vote, we are a lot more solid than even I thought. Both votes say it.

Your Dave (the GOAT-MAN) Shoppaul got 148 votes. Wow! You got 158 members in good standing. And all those rumors about how fragmented we are back here, Looks like were even more split up over here than I thought! (that was sarcasm, Lill). stephen

 

[Tiger 1050]

Stop thinking, start reading. The TA spoke for itself. With the merger, the company got orders. Some were before the merger. As long as we were separate Ops, it was spelled out clearly who got what right down to N numbers. We were "Toast?" Not according to what your own merger attorney told your old MEC on August 30, 2005. Too bad the judge shut out so much of our potential exhibits. The stuff made for appeal. And we did have orders as well as returns out there, btw. We also lost over 30 737s, Airbuses and 757s between the TA signing party and the end of 2006. All accounted for and planned in the TA. Company also stuck with some of our LOA 93 provisions.

You, with your wealth of experience should've by now heard the phrase "I'll believe it when I see it." Maybe that applies here, ya think?

The jumpseat thing might had something to do with the vote. But your AWAPPA-Patrol telling potential furloughees not to join was what clinched it. Those on probation didnt even have to pay back dues. They just had to join. Your Wargocky-types joined but didnt pay. And thats our fault? They did it to themselves. USAPA wasnt broadcasting lists of dues currency. But maybe we should going forward. Not dues-current, no JS. Maybe if we see signs of some JS courtesy and improved behavior out West, maybe we can revisit this. Kind of like the old days with ALPA where you had to show your current ALPA card to JS (on EAL, TWA, NWA, Alaska to name a few).

Rise above the politic snoop! Can your peers do that? Apparently not. Spin it and justify it any way you like but in the end we should know by now we'll never see eye to eye. Too bad families will pay the price for the east's indignation.

For the record (review my previous posts if you like), I did vote for the assessment and encouraged others to in the PHL crew room. But no east pilot ever jumped on my case for expressing my support. One thing I hope you take away from that vote, we are a lot more solid than even I thought. Both votes say it.

Sorry Mr. Snoop, I do not, and most probably don't, take anything but vindictiveness away from that vote. Solidarity? Unification? Only in spite towards the west.

The story continues... Too bad too. We could be a formidable force in dealing with this management team but alas you require I and my peers out west make you whole at our personal expense. Not going to happen. But look on the bright side, you've got your 70 mil., you've got your "snapback." (love that one. Still can't find the word "snapback" though.) And hey! Another 5 years of US Airways! :huh:

 

[lurker-man]

As a long time reader and almost non-existent poster, I believe that the following vote was made in an emotional response to the animosity alive and thriving between us.


Are you in favor of the BPR Resolution to expand eligibility to furloughed US Airways pilots, who were not USAPA members at the time of furlough, to receive USAPA assistance with COBRA payments?



Total
% of Total Votes

Yes. I am in favor of the resolution
743
37.79

No. I am opposed to the resolution
1223
62.21

Total
1966

I was victim to that animosity and had originally voted NO. That was until a poster here pointed out that there are new hires (i.e. after the merger was consummated) at the former AWA. These pilots are on the front line of furlough and may, or MAY NOT have had the choice to join USAPA without intense external pressure by those powers that be in the west. Even though they knew that they would soon be furloughed, and what that would mean to them and their families they probably tried to hold the line with their coworkers.
I am not an altruist, many here disgust me. (Yeah, yeah. Cut and paste that to your hearts content and twist my intent to suit your means. Ultimately, it means nothing.) It has been demonstrated that the extension of olive branches is a waste of wood. That being said, it is fundamentally wrong to leave these people that were hired after the merger flapping in the breeze. They were strong armed into their position and had to work in an environment that would have been hostile to their joining. Were any interested? I doubt it. If one or two or more were held hostage by the circumstances that arose, (much like being furlough fodder), I guess we just voted, "oh well, F'em".
Be aware of what we just did. That's all that I am saying. BTW, if a "west" group of some fashion were to get their act together and try to put a separate voluntary furlough COBRA coverage fund together, it looks like you might think about reaching out to ALL USAirways pilots to kick in. Roughly 1/3 of the former "east" voted YES to supporting COBRA coverage. I know that I would, IF they signed on and became current in their dues.
To keep it simple for some that have a difficult time comprehending, I will make a basic observation so that you can tell from your entrenched position if, "HIM GOOD" OR "HIM BAD". I fundamentally believe that the Nic is flawed, allowed a windfall to the "west", therefore did not follow agreed ALPA procedure. The "neutral" pilot reps were ultimately not, as they were aware that the outcome in this decision could affect them in the next merger, they did indeed have a “dog in the race" or whatever aphorism you wish to use. That, however, is irrelevant. Just pointing out my perspective.

Good Evening all, I wish us all well after the decision.

P.S. My perspective on character,
One that would be willing to call a pilot "lucky" for successfully getting through an incident is PROBABLY,
One that would tell you THEY would NEVER make the same mistake of the crew that augered in.
SUCH HEROES They Are!

 

[luvn737s]

Based on USAPA's performance to date, what compelling reason could you give anyone to join USAPA? A group that would rather continue to pusue the same failed agenda indefinitely behind the same polarizing leadership.

Do you promise them any benefits to membership?

 

[lurker-man]

Well..
I was hoping to assist the furloughed. That was why I bothered to post. What assistance are you offering to the furloughed sir/maam? We should have voted to do so.
The rest I shall leave to the frequent posters.

 

[V1cut]

Rise above the politic snoop! Can your peers do that? Apparently not. Spin it and justify it any way you like but in the end we should know by now we'll never see eye to eye. Too bad families will pay the price for the east's indignation.

I do not, and most probably don't, take anything but vindictiveness away from that vote. Solidarity? Unification? Only in spite towards the west.

Let me get this straight...you ARE a WEST furloughed pilot...and NOT a new-hire, based on your prolific posting and pro-West agenda...and as such, being a professional airline pilot, YOU put your own family in harm's way when you challenged USAPA, defied a section 29 termination, paid "dues" to AOL or AWAPPA, or both.

(do I have it right so far?)

And now you have the audacity to try to place blame on East pilots who took exception to your juxtaposed position to the union and denied YOUR FAMILY Cobra benefits that the EAST would pay for?

(feel free to correct me where you think I'm wrong)

You be sure to explain to your wife and kids that your "Army of Leonidas" was coaching you in your endeavors...that even though a section 29 termination was worth the gamble as a non-member of the real Union on the property....and that if furloughed, you AND THEY...were at risk for benefits because nothing is guaranteed unless you are at least a member of the Union who could potentially provide those benefits.

As fate would have it, I was talked into a yes vote (for your family...NOT you)...but it seems your AOL game has gone too far.

Maybe give them a call.

 

[EastUS]

You east folks need to pull your head out of the sand. The West operation(i.e. America West) now runs the whole operation.

Almost hard to believe that you actually phrased that as "pull your head out of the sand"..Nothing could be more appropriate herein...No matter = That "The west operation (i.e. America west) now runs the whole operation" has been fully noticed and "appreciated" by all...especially by the vast numbers of the fleeing/long-since-gone-now, frequent fliers and high yield customers in general....

 

[Eastisleast]

Well..
I was hoping to assist the furloughed. That was why I bothered to post. What assistance are you offering to the furloughed sir/maam? We should have voted to do so.
The rest I shall leave to the frequent posters.

If you "east" people hadn't hijacked our union away from us we wouldn't have this problem now would we?