USAPA Loses DFR Case!/US pilot thread

[oscarjazz]

If you work for an airline, an you said you did, then you DO have a dog in this fight.

Let me guess. ALPA, right?

Read the transcripts if you don't get it, as apparently you don't.

I guess I have a dog in this fight. What I should want is for US Air to go down in flames so my airline can pick up the flying. What I would like is for all the LCC pilots to make more money and quit fighting each other.

Yes, I am with ALPA. However, I could not give a rat's behind if you come back to ALPA or not.

I think I said in my post that I have been reading the transcripts. Obviously we have different opinions as to what they mean. This won't be solved by us yelling at each other, it is in the jury's hands.

My question to you would be, if you can negotiate a new seniority list now, can the West wait until enough East pilots retire, become the majority and then redo the list again? Would you support that? Is that maintaining a duty of fair representation if they decide to put all the remaining East pilots stapled to the bottom with some self created conditions and restrictions?

Good for the goose, good for the gander.

 

[oldiebutgoody]

I guess I have a dog in this fight. What I should want is for US Air to go down in flames so my airline can pick up the flying. What I would like is for all the LCC pilots to make more money and quit fighting each other.

Yes, I am with ALPA. However, I could not give a rat's behind if you come back to ALPA or not.

I think I said in my post that I have been reading the transcripts. Obviously we have different opinions as to what they mean. This won't be solved by us yelling at each other, it is in the jury's hands.

My question to you would be, if you can negotiate a new seniority list now, can the West wait until enough East pilots retire, become the majority and then redo the list again? Would you support that? Is that maintaining a duty of fair representation if they decide to put all the remaining East pilots stapled to the bottom with some self created conditions and restrictions?

Good for the goose, good for the gander.

Read Labor law, bucko.

 

[Freighterguynow]

The really hilarious part of it all is that the entire purpose of USAPA will then have become moot. The East DOH crew will be right back where they were with ALPA, essentially. The irony is stunning.

I thought the same thing, only about the West and Wye River, because that is where an AOL victory resets us to.

 

[exB717Flyer]

Big difference, big guy. Your TWA MEC gave it away.

What in the sam hill are you talking about? What our MEC gave up was because of the gun held to our heads by the bankruptcy court.

Actually, it was ALPA National which gave away your seniority number, stapled you to the AMR bottom.

No, it was the APA. ALPA just didn't try to prevent it. In any case it's irrlevent to our situation.

Hows that DFR going? 9 years, still going or over?

Last I heard possible trial date later this year.

If USAPA wins the RJ and line reduction arbitrations, youll once again be a line holder in PHX. Or has that totally escaped you?

You think I should be optimistic about an arbitrator's ruling? Ri-ight.

 

[nycbusdriver]

There has been prediction around here for years (ahem) that the dual ratification thing would not be ended-around by USAPA.

I'm not sure anyone could have figured out exactly where the dust would fall on dual ratification short of a court ordered resolution. And, soon we will likely have one. Just because one side or the other pontificated on this for years (ahem,) does not mean either side had any clue (ahem) about where this would actually end up (other than in court.)

If that comes to pass (as it probably should in a just world) with some language to the effect that Nicolau is "the list" in any future contract, then it's simply a matter of how long the various sides are willing to accept their current situation.

I agree with your sentiment. However, the east pilots won't ratify anything with the Nicolau list until we have results of the inevitable grievance over the expiration of LOA 93 pay freezes (likely to be filed promptly on February 1, 2010,) and what exactly that means. This would drag things out for at least another year from today. If USAPA prevails on the grievance, I suspect the east pilots will be quite happy to remain without a new contract for quite some time. It the company prevails, there may actually be some movement toward an east ratification of a Nic-attached contract.

If the court discounts Nicolau, then the west will have to decide for themselves (I would never predict how it would play out) whether or not to accept a combined contract with less than the Nicolau list. Here again, if the east prevails in their LOA 93 grievance, they would be hard pressed (I conjecture here) to see the east pilots leap far ahead in pay. But stranger things have happened around here in the last few years.

The West guys might have some leverage, as that contract is either in or eligible for Section 6, IIRC (and a failure to act on that might open the door for another DFR).

The east also can open Section 6 in less than 2 months. If a failure of USAPA to have already opened Section 6 for the west was a point of contention aiming at a DFR, why hasn't that been used as ammunition in the Addington case? Personally, I think that would have been the easiest DFR complaint to argue and make stick.

The really hilarious part of it all is that the entire purpose of USAPA will then have become moot. The East DOH crew will be right back where they were with ALPA, essentially. The irony is stunning.

I'm truly joyous that you find any of this hilarious. May your luck respond in kind. As far as the irony, I will reiterate for the UMPTEENTH time that USAPA never offered guarantees of ANYTHING other than the empowerment of the individual pilot who had at least a passing interest in participation.

 

[nycbusdriver]

The only plan B is to jettison the angry fo club members running USAPA a

And which "angry fo club members" are running USAPA today? Names, please. And be sure they are at least F/Os (I'll let you slide on the "angry" part.)

 

[oscarjazz]

Read Labor law, bucko.

There are probably a million or more pages of labor law. Care to point me to the relevant sections? What labor law? What exactly does the labor law say in regards to your situation? Saying "read labor law" to me says, I don't have an argument but I will pretend you are uninformed. You didn't answer any of my previous questions either. Why not?

 

[oldiebutgoody]

There are probably a million or more pages of labor law. Care to point me to the relevant sections? What labor law? What exactly does the labor law say in regards to your situation? Saying "read labor law" to me says, I don't have an argument but I will pretend you are uninformed. You didn't answer any of my previous questions either. Why not?

You can start by looking up DFR. Then you can read the case law cited in the lawsuit which is ongoing.

Actions CANNOT be arbitrary in nature. And before you go nuts, it's already been determined and adjudicated that DOH is NOT an arbitrary method of combining seniority lists. ALPA has lost it's right to claim that it protects the careers of airline pilots.

Also, everyone already knew that the Nic award may stand, even if USAPA won the election. ALPA was so incompetent in it's represtation of US Airways (and USAIR) pilots over the last couple of decades, I'm surprised it didn't go sooner.

Oh, and I don't have to answer any STUPID questions, especially those by ALPA supporters that haven't been following this thread for at least the last 2 years.

 

[EastUS]

ALPA has lost it's right to claim that it protects the careers of airline pilots.

ALPA was so incompetent in it's represtation of US Airways (and USAIR) pilots over the last couple of decades, I'm surprised it didn't go sooner.

Those observations qualify as the very kindest and gentlest understatements that I've seen in a long while

 

[oscarjazz]

You can start by looking up DFR. Then you can read the case law cited in the lawsuit which is ongoing.

Actions CANNOT be arbitrary in nature. And before you go nuts, it's already been determined and adjudicated that DOH is NOT an arbitrary method of combining seniority lists. ALPA has lost it's right to claim that it protects the careers of airline pilots.

Also, everyone already knew that the Nic award may stand, even if USAPA won the election. ALPA was so incompetent in it's represtation of US Airways (and USAIR) pilots over the last couple of decades, I'm surprised it didn't go sooner.

Oh, and I don't have to answer any STUPID questions, especially those by ALPA supporters that haven't been following this thread for at least the last 2 years.

Okay, so I guess that ALPA Merger Policy, the Allegheny-Mohawk LPP's, and the McCaskill legislation can all be boiled down to:

Seniority will be determined by whatever pilot group is bigger and is willing to push around the minority. If we follow your logic, then all the negotiation, mediation, and arbitration is just window dressing because if the majority doesn't get their way, they get to throw a hissy fit and push around the other group. I am sure that is how the DFR law reads.

So if ALPA was incompetent, then why didn't you just vote for the guys who are now running USAPA and skip the whole new union hassle? It seems to me that before, you selected a group of LCC pilots to run your union and now you are selecting a group of LCC pilots to run your union. I see, it's much different now.

 

[ussnark]

So if ALPA was incompetent, then why didn't you just vote for the guys who are now running USAPA and skip the whole new union hassle?

The problem with ALPA National is that your local manifestation (MEC) is simply a small part of the whole. ALPA National's support is based on their wants and needs, not yours. The east pilots saw that with their taking PHL into trusteeship as well as blatant mothership protections from recall for the CLT counsel, certainly actions that only served the resolve of those predisposed to change as well as swaying many on the fence.

Notice, I did not mention the "nic". The "nic" was only one link in a long chain. The C&BL's were not written to interdict specific circumstances like the "nic", but to hand the reins back to the line pilot. Now, the line pilot can change things as the majority sees fit and not have to conform with a national organization.

 

[oldiebutgoody]

...So if ALPA was incompetent, then why didn't you just vote for the guys who are now running USAPA and skip the whole new union hassle?

Oh, so at YOUR airline the line pilot gets to vote for the MEC officers?

Didn't think so. Now, go back under your ALPA rock.

 

[nycbusdriver]

Okay, so I guess that ALPA Merger Policy, the Allegheny-Mohawk LPP's, and the McCaskill legislation can all be boiled down to:

Seniority will be determined by whatever pilot group is bigger and is willing to push around the minority. If we follow your logic, then all the negotiation, mediation, and arbitration is just window dressing because if the majority doesn't get their way, they get to throw a hissy fit and push around the other group. I am sure that is how the DFR law reads.

Actually, the Allegheny-Mohawk LPPs favored the much smaller Mohawk pilots (who were, by DOH, generally more senior.) That alone kind of blows your argument out of the water.

So if ALPA was incompetent, then why didn't you just vote for the guys who are now running USAPA and skip the whole new union hassle? It seems to me that before, you selected a group of LCC pilots to run your union and now you are selecting a group of LCC pilots to run your union. I see, it's much different now.

If you take the time to look into how your ALPA unit, and ALPA national actually operate under their C&BLs, you would see that the entire structure is set up to keep those who have power in power, and disempower the individual line pilot. It would have been impossible to elect those who formed USAPA into meaningful positions within ALPA. Even the west pilots know this as truth, as they also had their own attempts to cut the ALPA mother ship loose.

The very last thing we need here is a pontificating newbie ALPA apologist who is simply rehashing discussions that took place here literally YEARS ago. ALPA is gone from this property, probably for good. If you want to know the reason, read your ALPA C&BL and understand exactly what they mean to the line pilot.

 

[Phoenix]

..
My question to you would be, if you can negotiate a new seniority list now, can the West wait until enough East pilots retire, become the majority and then redo the list again? ..

Your question presumes that a vote on a seniority list has occurred. Can you please make reference to a vote on a seniority list?

 

[Eastisleast]

Okay, so I guess that ALPA Merger Policy, the Allegheny-Mohawk LPP's, and the McCaskill legislation can all be boiled down to:

Seniority will be determined by whatever pilot group is bigger and is willing to push around the minority. If we follow your logic, then all the negotiation, mediation, and arbitration is just window dressing because if the majority doesn't get their way, they get to throw a hissy fit and push around the other group. I am sure that is how the DFR law reads.

So if ALPA was incompetent, then why didn't you just vote for the guys who are now running USAPA and skip the whole new union hassle? It seems to me that before, you selected a group of LCC pilots to run your union and now you are selecting a group of LCC pilots to run your union. I see, it's much different now.

This guy gets it...the rest of the aviation community is starting to get it. Usapa is a black eye to this proffesion. Spread the word jazz!!