USAPA Loses DFR Case!/US pilot thread

[cactusboy53]

Since you bring up fair deal. The 200+ of us that are on furlough right now are the ones that are not getting a fair deal. I fully believe that if this seniority issue wasn't going on right now we would all be working. We are the casualties of this whole mess but it seems that the majority could care less. To be honest with you I really don't care who is right or wrong at this point, I hear both sides arguments and understand them but at some point the hatchet needs to be buried regardless of the outcome of this trial. If not the ship is going to sink and a lot more will be losing there jobs. As far as final and binding, there aren't to many things these days that are set in stone.

PSW737:
I'm not sure that I understand your position. If you are furloughed at this time, you are likely either a "third list" pilot, or a former AWA pilot.

If you are a "third list" pilot you would surely be still furloughed (based on the economic situation that everyone is in, not just the airline industry).

I presume that you are a former AWA pilot that has been furloughed out of seniority order.

In either case, I am very sorry for the situation that you are now in. I had the mis-fortune to be there myself. I keep all of those affected in my daily prayers and thoughts. You are right, if we had moved off to complete a contract we collectively would all be in a better place (albeit there would still have been 200+ furloughs). Don't forget the addition of the age change to the "perfect storm".

The courts are doing a bench trial today for remedies. The trial will resume on Tuesday with closing arguments. It is possible to see a verdict by the end of next week, and with that perhaps the completion of the three very important arbitrations (AWA out of seniority, Block hours & Scope).

Hang in there & God's Speed.

 

[Megasnoop]

I saw a possible light at the end of the tunnel today when Mr. Seham suggested a possible remedy of status quo ante if the Court were to grant injunctive relief. If that happened it might be an option to forego appeal and work instead to work out a contract that East, West and the Company could agree to.
I could see defendant possibly waiving an appeal, saving legal fees and working toward an acceptable seniority proposal and a CBA. This scenario would both save legal fees and perhaps get the pilots significantly closer to a new CBA. At any rate it would allow the pilots to focus their energies on the Company rather than each other, which in the long run saves and makes money.

Hope that light isnt an on-coming train. You make good points. One thing not to be forgotten, after all the hundreds of thousands of $$ spent on this case is that, just for the sake of argument, lets say AOL wins. There is so much potential reversible error here, appeals could drag out for years. The DAL/PanAm DFR that ALPA eventually won dragged out for 6 years after first filed. stalemate, parkers could only dream. The judge also has the problem of being reversed. That doesnt go well for him in the respect column. Egos are egos.

For months we heard all the garbage of multi-million $$ damages. I think we all realize that until theres a contract there are none. From the trial, both sides agree that USAPAs not stalling. Also slammed home loud and clear was where .8-year west FOs ended up between 17-year FOs on the NIC. Anybody who didnt see the jury reaction (I saw it on my only day attending) wasnt paying attention.

Wake gets it. Ultimately, the judge cannot take away a union members right to vote on a contract. He sees the stalemate. He becomes “judge of the yearâ€￾ if he can maneuver both sides to a post-verdict or pre-verdict accord. Then he also avoids the scrutiny of his rulings being shredded before the appeals court.

IF some kind of deal is worked out, theres nothing to prevent the “Metros, Cleareds and Lilsâ€￾ from opting out of the class and doing their own thing with a lawsuit of their own. From the very beginning of this lawsuit, there was never going to be a “winnerâ€￾ who didnt get covered in scars, either immediately down the road. That included east/west pilots, east/west lawyers, even the judge. Only guaranteed winner in this has been the Dougster.

Ive always seen where the AOLers were coming from. They had a binding arbitration that they thought transcended who represented them. They thought USAPA was illegally violating that agreement. USAPA thought otherwise. So both sides went into their corners and came out fighting with mega $$. Now were near the end with both sides concerned about which way this will go. I have a feeling either a pre or post verdict agreement will be coming down the way. Just enough to make all rank and members scream foul. Snoop thoughts for the day

 

[Megasnoop]

Yeah, that's a great remedy...Dual Ratification. I will remind you that is what the West already had before it was stolen from them and the attempted cram down began.

Not sure why the inflammatory language. Nothing stolen from anyone at this point. No contract in place. The judge knows that short a criminal act (ala Teamsters), he cant negate the rights of union members to vote on a contract. And after listening to a week of trial he also knows theres no chance a NIC-included contract will ever pass.

I think the judge was clearly leaning towards option 2. The fixation of the Nic into ANY and ALL contract proposals in the future

Then you can sit back and enjoy your current contract. Well enjoy ours, with our $70M and pay raises. No way a NIC-dominated contract ever gets passed, whether by veto or by straight line single vote. Ive flown with our most senior CAs. They got no dog in this fight, yet they are our strongest supporters.

"Who gave these guys the right to determine ANY "conditions and restrictions"? Final and binding Arbitration is over.

Thats not the question. The question is does that final and binding carry over to the new CBA? If it does, enjoy your current contract and separate operations.

The "cram down" sir, was initiated by ALPA against Us Airways pilots, the by-product was the birth of USAPA.

That also became quite clear in the trial. But like the typical ALPA, they couldnt even get that part right, always hedging their bets. If ALPA had followed through with their duties to implement the NIC, we wouldnt be debating this and we would never have gone to trial. ALPA, Ill tell you, as much as I disliked them over the years (LOA93, pension-loss), their inaction kept the NIC out. Can we say they finally did something right?

So you are saying the seniority list needs to be renegotiated?

The ultimate compromise may essentially lead to that, Lil. If you dont like it, you, Nic4, Clear and Metro can always opt out and start your own action. Maybe you can even DFR AOL (that was sarcasm). OL Snoop

 

[ClueByFour]

There has been prediction around here for years (ahem) that the dual ratification thing would not be ended-around by USAPA.

If that comes to pass (as it probably should in a just world) with some language to the effect that Nicolau is "the list" in any future contract, then it's simply a matter of how long the various sides are willing to accept their current situation.

The West guys might have some leverage, as that contract is either in or eligible for Section 6, IIRC (and a failure to act on that might open the door for another DFR).

The really hilarious part of it all is that the entire purpose of USAPA will then have become moot. The East DOH crew will be right back where they were with ALPA, essentially. The irony is stunning.

 

[exB717Flyer]

The company did the furloughs, not USAPA. Put blame where blame belongs and we can have a constructive conversation about where we all belong on the final list.

Funny, that's the same thing the APA told the TWA pilots after they stapled 2/3 of us. Furloughs occur by reverse-seniority. Under the Nicolau list I would be still be a lineholder in PHX instead of having been displaced to reserve in LAS and only a handful from the bottom. Who's to blame for us not getting a new contract in 2007 when the company was profitable? The East. The blame is going exactly where it belongs.

 

[Metroyet]

And after listening to a week of trial he also knows theres no chance a NIC-included contract will ever pass.

Au Contriare. In FACT he stated many times that because ALPA didn't get a chance to pursue all avenues and eventually put the contract to a vote, it will NEVER be known how a vote might have gone.

You don't get to vote section by section. Sec. 22 followed the letter of procedure and here we are.

Jury instructions and remedy will be decided today. I wonder if the Judge will throw all uses of binding arbitration, (past and future) into a quagmire. A quagmire that specifically allows for the majority to force their will upon the minority if they don't like the outcome of the Final and Binding Arbitration.

 

[EastUS]

There has been prediction around here for years (ahem) that the dual ratification thing would not be ended-around by USAPA.

If that comes to pass (as it probably should in a just world) with some language to the effect that Nicolau is "the list" in any future contract, then it's simply a matter of how long the various sides are willing to accept their current situation.

Speaking of brilliant (ahem) predictions:

"QUOTE
“No evidence will be admitted to challenge the process, procedure, or decision of the Nicolau Award.â€￾


ClueByFour: "Can't wait to hear how they will then get Sully/Skiles onto the stand...."

Your observations are actually correct on one issue though = (ahem) "If that comes to pass.......with some language to the effect that Nicolau is "the list" in any future contract, then it's simply a matter of how long the various sides are willing to accept their current situation." I'd honestly guess that the east, before ever voting in any nic implementing contract, could first enjoy watching the opening ceremony of the first Winter Olympics in Hades. Any other suggestions?

 

[EastUS]

......under this management. They are WAY to happy with the status quo. They've had a free ride for the years we've been fighting amongst ourselves. To them, the protracted negotiations haven't even started. And I do mean PROTRACTED.

Indeed. Anything gained from that bunch will have to be fought for. It's quite clear that they've not the slightest intentions of ever negotiating with even then tiniest shred of good faith. Right now they've got their "perfect storm" via the litigation and pilot group divisions to hide behind, and a current contract that's not yet subject to action. Should Nic ever be tossed into the mix.....let's just say that little would be improved there.

 

[nic4us]

Thats not the question. The question is does that final and binding carry over to the new CBA? If it does, enjoy your current contract and separate operations.

The ultimate compromise may essentially lead to that, Lil. If you dont like it, you, Nic4, Clear and Metro can always opt out and start your own action. Maybe you can even DFR AOL (that was sarcasm). OL Snoop

Snoop,

I will opt out but not in the manner you suggest. If USAPA gets a favorable verdict, the line of suits heading their way will be long, and I do not want to get in it. Starting with the east pilots suing for their correct DOH, and ending somewhere around sex discrimination against members. USAPA has been busy with the trial and all, but they still have not dropped the Cactus 18 appeal. They are already neck deep. A favorable ruling for USAPA will just pile it over their head.

You seem certain that the east will never ratify a new contract that contains the Nic. Okay, lets say the remedy is enforcement of the Nic , starting immediately for any future company decisions. Furloughs go by Nic, recalls go by Nic, upgrades by Nic. Wether or not you vote for or against any TA has absolutely no bearing on the implementation of Nic, it is already here.

I think that is the remedy AOL envisioned when they enjoined the company in the original suit. Get the company using Nic and USAPA can either play ball or stay at home does not matter to the West, all we lose is a 3% raise and on duty overnites.

 

[EastUS]

Jury instructions and remedy will be decided today.


....a quagmire that specifically allows for the majority to force their will upon the minority.......

You do realize that the above is perfectly descriptive of jury deliberations in any civil action?

 

[oscarjazz]

I work for a different airline so I don't have any dog in this fight. I have been reading the transcripts and I think the real question is how big a DFR box exists for any union. The East's case is that seniority can always be negotiated so they have a right to negotiate it. If you follow that logic, then the West pilots can wait until the East is the minority and then redo the list again.

I don't think that unions can renegotiate seniority willy-nilly. Otherwise, you would face a continual loop of one group obtaining a majority and then redoing the list. When would it end?

The LPP's that are in Allegheny-Mohawk, ALPA Merger Policy, and now the federal law, recognize that when two or more groups are merged there has to be a new list created. However, once that list is created, then IT'S DONE.

The final USAPA argument is that the Nicolau award isn't binding on the pilots only their reps. This argument is laughable on its surface. I guess I could try to avoid paying taxes because I never voted for a tax code but I am pretty sure I would end up in jail. In a representative democracy, you vote for representatives who then have control over your destiny. Just because you didn't vote on each step of the process, does not allow you to invalidate the results.

My guess is that USAPA is climbing a steep hill here. They should start thinking about plan b involving the Nicolau award.

 

[aquagreen73s]

The final USAPA argument is that the Nicolau award isn't binding on the pilots only their reps. This argument is laughable on its surface.

That was brought out yesterday on Mowerey's cross examination. There is clear language in the Transition Agreement which unequivocally says that the Merger Committees represent and bind the pilots they represent in this agreement. That part of the TA was brought up on the display screens for the jurors and all spectators to see. Mowerey was asked to read that section and explain how the clear language about pilots being bound through their merger reps somehow means that only the merger reps are bound. It was almost embarrassing.

I guess I could try to avoid paying taxes because I never voted for a tax code but I am pretty sure I would end up in jail.

I've heard that argument about not signing a W4, therefore you are not bound to pay taxes. I've never heard of that working as a defense when those folks are dragged into federal court for nonpayment of tax delinquencies.

In a representative democracy, you vote for representatives who then have control over your destiny. Just because you didn't vote on each step of the process, does not allow you to invalidate the results.

If that did work, then we'd be in Zimbabwe.

My guess is that USAPA is climbing a steep hill here. They should start thinking about plan b involving the Nicolau award.

The only plan B is to jettison the angry fo club members running USAPA and then work with the West to secure pay and QOL improvements for all pilots. Anything else is just wasting more valuable time.

USAPA is turning into the experiement that cost a half a billion dollars for the East.

 

[ussnark]

Who's to blame for us not getting a new contract in 2007 when the company was profitable?

Um, your ALPA west MEC?

I know for a fact that the east MEC was encouraging the west MEC to enter negotiations. On your jumpseat I also was encouraging you all to contact your reps about that. I was given a couple of excuses otherwise, like, added leverage combining with the east pilots, etc. and so on.

 

[Megasnoop]

Funny, that's the same thing the APA told the TWA pilots after they stapled 2/3 of us. Furloughs occur by reverse-seniority. Under the Nicolau list I would be still be a lineholder in PHX instead of having been displaced to reserve in LAS and only a handful from the bottom.

Big difference, big guy. Your TWA MEC gave it away. Actually, it was ALPA National which gave away your seniority number, stapled you to the AMR bottom. Thats what the Hefeley/Arthur DFR lawsuit is all about, isnt it? All in the quest for dues money? See any resemblance to how ALPA handled this fiasco? Looks like ALPA screwed you over twice. ALPA was your CBA, not the TWA MEC. Duane Woerth signed off on your screwing, all to placate the APA, hoping to get them to join ALPA. At least thats how I read your DFR against ALPA. Hows that DFR going? 9 years, still going or over?

Who's to blame for us not getting a new contract in 2007 when the company was profitable? The East. The blame is going exactly where it belongs.

Last I checked ALPA was our CBA, not the East MEC. I wasnt an ALPA member, so dont associate us non-members with any of the goings on. As I said before, ALPA played a game and got burned. If they had been true their own merger policy and acted like a real union, you guys would have gotten the NIC in an ALPA-cram-down contract before they got deep-sixth.

If USAPA wins the RJ and line reduction arbitrations, youll once again be a line holder in PHX. Or has that totally escaped you?

Um, your ALPA west MEC?
I know for a fact that the east MEC was encouraging the west MEC to enter negotiations. On your jumpseat I also was encouraging you all to contact your reps about that. I was given a couple of excuses otherwise, like, added leverage combining with the east pilots, etc. and so on.

Thanks for reminding me, Snark. I remember west pilots arguing on this board they didnt want a new contract until after seeing the seniority list. If wed had a contract first, we wouldnt be in court now, Ex717/TWA guy would still be a line holder in PHX even with the furloughs. snoop

 

[oldiebutgoody]

I work for a different airline so I don't have any dog in this fight. I have been reading the transcripts and I think the real question is how big a DFR box exists for any union. The East's case is that seniority can always be negotiated so they have a right to negotiate it. If you follow that logic, then the West pilots can wait until the East is the minority and then redo the list again.

I don't think that unions can renegotiate seniority willy-nilly. Otherwise, you would face a continual loop of one group obtaining a majority and then redoing the list. When would it end?

The LPP's that are in Allegheny-Mohawk, ALPA Merger Policy, and now the federal law, recognize that when two or more groups are merged there has to be a new list created. However, once that list is created, then IT'S DONE.

The final USAPA argument is that the Nicolau award isn't binding on the pilots only their reps. This argument is laughable on its surface. I guess I could try to avoid paying taxes because I never voted for a tax code but I am pretty sure I would end up in jail. In a representative democracy, you vote for representatives who then have control over your destiny. Just because you didn't vote on each step of the process, does not allow you to invalidate the results.
My guess is that USAPA is climbing a steep hill here. They should start thinking about plan b involving the Nicolau award.

If you work for an airline, an you said you did, then you DO have a dog in this fight.

Let me guess. ALPA, right?

Read the transcripts if you don't get it, as apparently you don't.