USAPA Loses DFR Case!/US pilot thread

[Metroyet]

Very well said. As a furloughed guy, I just want my job back. Unfortunately thats probrably not going to happen until the majority can put the bull@#$% aside and start acting like the professionals I thought we were and collectvely come up with a reasonable solution to this.

I'll ask again, since this question is ALWAYS ignored.

"Who does the East negotiate with for their fantasy do over?" USAPA stole dual ratification and all the protections it afforded the west. USAPA was reverse engineered to guarantee the West would be completely disenfranchised and subjected to the sole whim and desires of the East. In a nutshell, the damage is done. There isn't even two parties to negotiate with...you guys attempted to rig that process remember. What you're really saying when you disengenuously seek a mutually agreed upon settlement is for the West to capitulate their rights and careers to you. Sorry.

Sorry you're furloughed but all of this B.S. as you put it, can be placed squarely at the feet of the East pilots and their representatives, by either name ALPA or USAPA. The reasonable solution was called final and binding arbitration.

Also, lemme guess. You're a furloughed EAST guy right?

 

[USPHX]

Very well said. As a furloughed guy, I just want my job back. Unfortunately thats probrably not going to happen until the majority can put the bull@#$% aside and start acting like the professionals I thought we were and collectvely come up with a reasonable solution to this.

Isn't that the REASON you agreed to binding arbitration? Because you COULDN'T "collectively come up with a reasonable solution to this."

 

[psw737]

I'll ask again, since this question is ALWAYS ignored.

"Who does the East negotiate with for their fantasy do over?" USAPA stole dual ratification and all the protections it afforded the west. USAPA was reverse engineered to guarantee the West would be completely disenfranchised and subjected to the sole whim and desires of the East. In a nutshell, the damage is done. There isn't even two parties to negotiate with...you guys attempted to rig that process remember. What you're really saying when you disengenuously seek a mutually agreed upon settlement is for the West to capitulate their rights and careers to you. Sorry.

Sorry you're furloughed but all of this B.S. as you put it, can be placed squarely at the feet of the East pilots and their representatives, by either name ALPA or USAPA. The reasonable solution was called final and binding arbitration.

Also, lemme guess. You're a furloughed EAST guy right?

No I'm actually West furloughed.

 

[hp_fa]

Yeah, that's a great remedy...Dual Ratification. I will remind you that is what the West already had before it was stolen from them and the attempted cram down began.

I think the judge was clearly leaning towards option 2. The fixation of the Nic into ANY and ALL contract proposals in the future. I agree that stevens was confused and disjointed at times the but the main fact remains this:

"Who gave these guys the right to determine ANY "conditions and restrictions"? Final and binding Arbitration is over.

Based on the way the Judge reacted yesterday at the proposal by Seham and his non-binding discussion I am not sure that I agree with you. He was clearly interested in Seham's non-binding (at this point) proposal.

 

[Metroyet]

No I'm actually West furloughed.

Okay, the East stole your MEC and all your real representation. How does the west get a fair deal from the East now?

 

[Metroyet]

Based on the way the Judge reacted yesterday at the proposal by Seham and his non-binding discussion I am not sure that I agree with you. He was clearly interested in Seham's non-binding (at this point) proposal.

The Judge spent twice as much time discussing the benefits of binding the nic. to any further contracts. He said that it removed the court from having to oversee the process. Moreover, he opined that his decision wouldn't impede any union members rights to vote on the merits of their contract. So I disagree with you. I was there the entire time and Judge spent much more time discussing the benefits of the above.

 

[hp_fa]

So you are saying the seniority list needs to be renegotiated?

Not yet, in large part because there is no ruling.

If the Judge were to issue an injunction and grant as a remedy that status quo ante is the sole remedy then West reacquires it collective veto of any CBA. In my view Nicolau would then be at least discussable as part of a complete remedy. If it were to occur as such then the West might want to choose to at least discuss modifying Nicolau as part of a CBA. How much or little West would choose to do so would be at their discretion.

 

[cleardirect]

Really?

Can you live with it if the NIC goes up in smoke next week when the verdict is read? Can you sit there with a good attitude and convince yourself that everything is OK?

I think not and the reason I say that is your statement about what you are OWED. Nic said I had no value as an East pilot and frankly I resent it. Here we are today...East is bringing in the cash and West is losing it. Does that mean West has no value. NO IT DOESN"T. We all have value as part of this outfit and part of a bigger picture.

We (East and West) better come up with another plan cause this one ain't working!

A320 Driver B)

Nicolau did not say you have no value. You are telling yourself that you have no value. Do you value yourself on the position or job that you hold? My life and worth are not determined by what I fly or where I go.

Nicolau determined that you seniority number did not bring a job to this merger. You brought a place in a very long line. The company valued your position for pay at your longevity. That is really the important part anyway right. The pay check. That is why I am here.

“East is bringing in the cash and West is losing it.â€￾
That is a bold statement. Can you back that up with any current proof? Any SEC filings and company documents at all, that is a true statement? This is once again your false perspective.

During the trial we heard all kinds of stories about what happened in the past. One of the reasons Bradford gave for being mad at ALPA was some British Airways BS and something that happened back in the 90’s. Gentlemen STOP living in the past. Drop all of the garbage and baggage and move on. No wonder US Airways has been going backwards for so long. All of you guys are longing for the 60’ and 70’ again. Hoping to recapture the glory days of your fathers airline.

That is gone, in the past. It is almost 2010. Reality boys. Accept it or leave.

This is the plan.

 

[hp_fa]

The Judge spent twice as much time discussing the benefits of binding the nic. to any further contracts. He said that it removed the court from having to oversee the process. Moreover, he opined that his decision wouldn't impede any union members rights to vote on the merits of their contract. So I disagree with you. I was there the entire time and Judge spent much more time discussing the benefits of the above.

Disagreement is fine.

What I perceived is that the Judge may have spent more time discussing certain possible remedies, but that status quo ante had many benefits in connection with his future case management of this case if an injunction were to issue and that it would return the parties to where they were as to their ability to vote as separate MEC's. In other words no unified election where the East could potentially simply out vote the West solely on the basis of numbers to defeat any CBA that included Nicolau.

The Judge clearly stated that members should retain their ability to vote as they see fit and appeared to me to be well aware that he could not compel folks to do otherwise. At any rate we will see more today. The West really didn't respond to Seham's proposal because it was raised just before the two sides were to caucus among themselves and the Court adjourned.

 

[psw737]

Okay, the East stole your MEC and all your real representation. How does the west get a fair deal from the East now?

Since you bring up fair deal. The 200+ of us that are on furlough right now are the ones that are not getting a fair deal. I fully believe that if this seniority issue wasn't going on right now we would all be working. We are the casualties of this whole mess but it seems that the majority could care less. To be honest with you I really don't care who is right or wrong at this point, I hear both sides arguments and understand them but at somepoint the hatchet needs to be buried regardless of the outcome of this trial. If not the ship is going to sink and a lot more will be losing there jobs. As far as final and binding, there aren't to many things these days that are set in stone.

 

[Megasnoop]

So many posts to comment on today, so little bandwidth.

Very well said. As a furloughed guy, I just want my job back. Unfortunately thats probrably not going to happen until the majority can put the bull@#$% aside and start acting like the professionals I thought we were and collectvely come up with a reasonable solution to this.

psw, what gets you un-furloughed is USAPA being successful in the arbitrations, pure and simple. Except for maybe the 6 west pilots who were furloughed early and may be legitimately owed a couple months pay each, USAPA did not cause the furloughs. The bull@ has nothing to do with your furlough. USAPA rose above the bull@ and went to arbitration. ALPA would have probably just negotiated it in the next contract.

Since you bring up fair deal. The 200+ of us that are on furlough right now are the ones that are not getting a fair deal. I fully believe that if this seniority issue wasn't going on right now we would all be working. We are the casualties of this whole mess but it seems that the majority could care less. To be honest with you I really don't care who is right or wrong at this point, I hear both sides arguments and understand them but at somepoint the hatchet needs to be buried regardless of the outcome of this trial. If not the ship is going to sink and a lot more will be losing there jobs. As far as final and binding, there aren't to many things these days that are set in stone.

psw, no one said the airline business is fair. Please dont equate your furlough with anything but LCCs refusal to follow the terms of the Transition Agreement. You may be a casualty, but blaming USAPA? YHGTBKM!

“The majority could care less?â€￾ Its that "majority" that pulled out all the stops to force the company into arbitration on the illegal furloughs when the company went into a 4-month delay. Remember Beth Holden being sick? Or Hemenway being out of the country? Its hard to carry on a conversation over this when you fail to identify who it was who stuck it to you. ALPA could have put AAA MEC into trusteeship and forced a NIC cram-down contract. They didnt, because they knew theyd lose the property. Now your suffering via furlough. The company did the furloughs, not USAPA. Put blame where blame belongs and we can have a constructive conversation about where we all belong on the final list.

From my point of view, you deserve your job back NOW. Lets hope we successful in the arbitrations. snoop

 

[nic4us]

Really?

Can you live with it if the NIC goes up in smoke next week when the verdict is read? Can you sit there with a good attitude and convince yourself that everything is OK?

We (East and West) better come up with another plan cause this one ain't working!

A320 Driver B)

First, in reply to your "lottery" comment in the prior post. That attitude is the problem.

Yes, I can live with a verdict that says final and binding arbitration is no longer final nor binding. I will keep a good attitude as I move on to better things, and watch the rat race from a distance and notice just what kind of rats are winning that race.

I will delight in the fact that the difference between me and those rats is my word means more than my job.

Here is a plan that will work. 1.. We enter into a third party arbitration to determine our seniority and we live by the results of that arbitration. 2..We then seek contract improvements for the benefit of all. 3..We work hard and make a prosperous company that will pay us even more money and hire more pilots to fly an increased fleet of airplanes.

 

[nycbusdriver]

Very well said. As a furloughed guy, I just want my job back. Unfortunately thats probrably not going to happen until the majority can put the bull@#$% aside and start acting like the professionals I thought we were and collectvely come up with a reasonable solution to this.

Unfortunately for all of us, there is a third party to all of this effort to move forward. That's the company.

It doesn't matter how professional the pilots act, as long as the company refuses to treat this labor group (or any other labor group) like professionals, there will be no progress.

It doesn't really matter how the Addington case is settled. The company will not bargain in good faith any time soon, as it is not in their best interest to do so.

An Addington win for the west pilot group will not be the panacea you expect. Don't look for a raise for YEARS, if ever, under this management. They are WAY to happy with the status quo. They've had a free ride for the years we've been fighting amongst ourselves. To them, the protracted negotiations haven't even started. And I do mean PROTRACTED.

 

[nycbusdriver]

The Judge spent twice as much time discussing the benefits of binding the nic. to any further contracts.

Ah! I didn't realize that this case would be determined by a chess clock.

Or, do you bring your own stop watch?

 

[ussnark]

Accept it or leave.

Believe me, I would love to go back to Africa, er, USAir.

and,

past is future. Even the naming of your group, AOL, appeals to that very issue.