USAirways pilots labor thread 7/23-7-29

[cleardirect]

12 year TOS rates for east equipment

Position...Eq...Current...1/2010...5/2010
Capt...A330...159.....229...236
F/O.....A330...108....156...161
Capt...Grp1...144....205....211
F/O.....Grp1...98.....140....144
Capt...Grp2...124....178....183
F/O.....Grp2...85.....121....125
Capt...E190...96.....98......98
F/O.....E190...53.....54......54

Question is: Would mgmt offer these payrates? Nope. Is it in our best interest to wait LESS THAN 6 MONTHS to get them? Yep. Is it a significant bargaining chip to use in any negotiation? Yep.
Guys here keep harping about how the new guys haven't brought home a new contract yet and how they can't because they have no bargaining position. Well, here it is guys. These are the base rates for any negotiations going forward. Waiting also helps because the economy is improving (Newsweek declared 'the recession is over' this week). Why hurry up and get a recessionary/concessionary/under-industry-rate contract when waiting a few months could pay more? Savvy horse traders know how to play the game - this is it.
BTW, I am astounded at anyone being 'happy' at $160/hr for AB320 equip - (LUV just turned down $240/hr for 737) I suppose you'd be 'happy' with a ten year lock on that rate too??
Cheers

News flash. You are going to have to wait a lot longer then 6 months. Has arbitration been scheduled yet? You are looking at least next summer before you are disappointed again.

Why would anyone be happy with $160 per hour? Because it more than $124 per hour. $178 is not going to happen. $36 is better then $0.

I am just wondering how the east is going to repay the west for all of this lost money that you have cause us. Chasing dreams, fantasy.

 

[Poug Darker]

The company could save training costs by paying the 190 as Grp 2. Just sayin'

You know, the F100 had 99 seats and paid about $10/hr less than Grp2 a/c.
Like the 190, it sipped fuel and saved money. US ran Midway out of PHL by saturating the common city pairs with it. The 190 is replacing 737s and is less expensive to operate. It is being used against LUV and DAL on common city pairs. DAL is leaving the PHL-BOS market where the 190 runs hourly service.
The airplane and crews are on the front lines of the domestic battleground. The rates deserve to be set at least at the historical precident.
As for training costs, the company stated during the furloughs a few months back that training was a 'fixed' cost and did not vary. Basically, they have to pay for the sims and instructors and building anyway so using these facilities does not cost the company anything. I wager that those training events that don't cost anything will increase early next year...
Cheers

 

[Poug Darker]

News flash. You are going to have to wait a lot longer then 6 months. Has arbitration been scheduled yet? You are looking at least next summer before you are disappointed again.

Why would anyone be happy with $160 per hour? Because it more than $124 per hour. $178 is not going to happen. $36 is better then $0.

I am just wondering how the east is going to repay the west for all of this lost money that you have cause us. Chasing dreams, fantasy.

Right Back At 'Cha: If east has to wait, OK. Hell, we've been waiting for 5 years. Only this is black and white with a definite start date - 1/1/10. If things drag out, there is this concept of back pay.....

Arbitration is step two. Right now Mgmt is trying to write a coherent legal justification for denying the grievance (that should be rather humorous to read). What can you do? They have to figure out how to use the spell-checker, you know....

Taking your payrate logic to mind, so why wouldn't you be happy with $125 or $130 - because it is more than $124? What is magical about $160, other than that is the rate mgmt would like to get away with?
I would think that if you would be happy with $160, you'd kiss the feet of the NAC if they got you $188.
Hell, if they got us LUV's contract, I'd kiss them (but not on the lips).
Ask our returned furlough guys if 53 is good enough. Better yet, ask yourself if 53 is good enough for you, because you could be there, too. Hey, its better than zero, right?
How low can you go? You can bet mgmt is interested in that number. You see, when you set the bar low, mgmt will always go lower (negotiating 101). This was a MAJOR problem with ALPO, whose opening line in any contract negotiations was, "How can we help you?".

And finally, the east has not caused the west any loss of anything at all. That really pegged the BS meter, and doesn't even warrant a reply.

Cheers.

 

[HPDriver]

I know more math than you could every hope to learn.

Keep on denying reality, it's working real good for you so far.

Uh oh Megasnoop, looks like this guy needs the USAPA pep talk!!

 

[HPDriver]

The union has every reason to wait for the 2 situations at hand to play out.
AWA pilots are desperate

Ya, that's it.

Some are posting their spittle every 2 minutes.

Just trying to keep up with the spittle you guys are putting out every 1 minute.

 

[jetjok1]

Most say $160/hr would make them happy and we ain't going to get it now.

Two years ago was the time to get it.

If you think destroying any leverage we might have had by continuing to fight the West will open the company coffers, you're off the mark.

Well Trader- Let's put it to a vote. Let's see if your cross section of the Captain flying public agrees with your line of thinking. After all, talk is cheap! But I can tell you, this Captain votes NO! and you can take that to the bank.

 

[cleardirect]

Right Back At 'Cha: If east has to wait, OK. Hell, we've been waiting for 5 years. Only this is black and white with a definite start date - 1/1/10. If things drag out, there is this concept of back pay.....

Arbitration is step two. Right now Mgmt is trying to write a coherent legal justification for denying the grievance (that should be rather humorous to read). What can you do? They have to figure out how to use the spell-checker, you know....

Taking your payrate logic to mind, so why wouldn't you be happy with $125 or $130 - because it is more than $124? What is magical about $160, other than that is the rate mgmt would like to get away with?
I would think that if you would be happy with $160, you'd kiss the feet of the NAC if they got you $188.
Hell, if they got us LUV's contract, I'd kiss them (but not on the lips).
Ask our returned furlough guys if 53 is good enough. Better yet, ask yourself if 53 is good enough for you, because you could be there, too. Hey, its better than zero, right?
How low can you go? You can bet mgmt is interested in that number. You see, when you set the bar low, mgmt will always go lower (negotiating 101). This was a MAJOR problem with ALPO, whose opening line in any contract negotiations was, "How can we help you?".

And finally, the east has not caused the west any loss of anything at all. That really pegged the BS meter, and doesn't even warrant a reply.

Cheers.

Let’s review shall we.

Both sides agreed to binding arbitration.

The EAST does not like the outcome.
The EAST pulls out of negotiations during a very good economic time.
The EAST decides to try an experiment called USAPA.
The EAST stops any negotiations for two years. We now are in the worst economic times.
The EAST attempts to tell the company what the seniority list will be.
The EAST loses a DFR and decides to further delay negotiations.
The EAST is now saying why get a contract now that snap backs are on the way.
The EAST waits another year for arbitration on snap backs.
The EAST refuses to accept the injunction and delays another two years waiting for an appeal.

So yes it has been the EAST that has delayed and caused the west to lose money.

The west role in all of this. Accept binding arbitration, Accept the list and try and get a contract. Win a DFR case and try to move on with a new contract.

No BS.

BTW. Just because you can not possibly think of a legal argument why USAPA will not get the snap backs. Does not mean the smart lawyers will not. After all Seham had some off the wall theories. Only to be shot down by competent attorneys.

The Seham firm is the same guys that will be doing the snap back arbitration right? Good luck with that. He has done so well for you so far.

 

[HPDriver]

Another excellent piece from the more realistic east pilots:



http://usapawatch.com/2009/07/28/why-we-wi...eal-part-3.aspx

 

[oscarjazz]

Don't you think you've worn that out?... I've never blamed Nicolau for anything. I blamed ALPA for their mamby-pamby merger policy, guidelines, whatever they were calling it on whatever day. ALPA gave him an inaccurate list from the beginning... (ALPA wouldn't give him the accurate list as that would have definitely harmed them in the MDA lawsuit)... bottom line HB... are you a MIGS? I hope you are, because if you're not... all this stuff you're spewing on the various boards doesn't mean squat to me, because you don't want to change what you don't like... you just want to sit around and complain about it and continue to trash USAPA! Hope you're getting your rocks!

ALPA Merger Policy was changed in 1991. The first carrier to really test the new policy was US Airways in the Trump Shuttle merger. The Airways pilots argued for a virtual staple job because they argued that the Shuttle was a failing business and the pilots there had no future. The Shuttle pilots wanted to have their Date of Hire and their attrition accounted for. (Does any of this sound familiar?)

The result was given by Arbitrator Nicolau who went for a straight category and status ratio. (Again, sound familiar?).

After this experience, did the Airways pilots protest the merger policy? Did they go to the Board of Directors meeting with an amendment to the policy? Did they in any way indicate the policy should be changed at all? The answer is no.

When did the Airways pilots protest the merger policy? That was after they got an arbitration award they didn't like. Does this sound like a principled stand or just whining?

Everyone knows that the East pilots did not think the award is fair, because they argued a completely different case. However, if you are a party to the arbitration, you can not then act as a judge to its relative fairness. You are not neutral. Your position is like asking Bernie Madoff if his sentence is fair. "Why no, judge, I think I should be given time served and get to go back to my penthouse." This is why they don't let parties to a lawsuit pass judgment on the outcome.

Also, who prepared and presented the East seniority list to the arbitration panel? Wasn't the group who did that composed entirely of East pilots?

 

[88 B.T.D.]

However, you bring up the "let my daddy vote" crowd in a disparaging manner every chance you get. The majority of your fellow pilots were a "let my daddy vote" pilot. They cast their votes and the majority of your co-workers wanted LOA 93. That's democracy. That's what you claim you wanted...majority rule. Yet you continually mock them and attempt to discredit the very thing you hope to be.

What Garland et al wanted us to vote on was not even a TA ; it was a company offer direct to the pilots bypassing the Negotiators. Do you really think this is the way that contracts should be consummated? Neither did most of the "dont let my daddy vote " folks. If it is a TA or something involving pay or retirement, yes we should be able to vote.

 

[cubfan]

Alot has been said about what USAPA has or hasn't done in regards to the contract. About them pulling out and costing the west alot of money, how the East is dreaming about the loa 93 payrate expiration. First off, what would be acceptable to you? I may be wrong, but the only financial numbers I have ever seen is the parity/+3%. Usapa countered and the company came back with the same. I believe that was even before the economy tanked. Also how long would you be ready to sign for? I have looked at the two sides positions and from my seat it's concessionary at best. What makes you think 160.00/hr for group 2 capt. is even possible. Have any of you even talked to your west reps about what you would accept, or is all you think about is the Nic, and that we don't have a contract yet. If we don't know how to NEG. with this management group, then why don't you spend more time showing us how instead of just complaining and making YOUTUBE video's about something that has already been decided by the courts. Let the appeal run it's course, you or I can't do anything to affect it's outcome. As far as loa payrates, can't do anything about that either. That will all be decided in time. From my seat, 3% equals 3.00/hr,x 80hrs is a wopping 240.00 a month. Less in the winter, worse rsv rules, less sick, etc. show me the bargain. If your worried that industry standard would result in a BK, ok I'll wait, if we take the Kirby deal, we'll be stuck with it at least 7 years, no thanks I'll wait. It's easy to sit on the sidelines and complain, join, payup, jump in and help out. If you think this leadership sux's so bad, then do something about it. If your not part of the solution then your part of the problem. So again I ask, what should the pilot group accept, please let us know.

Thanks

 

[nycbusdriver]

And bankruptcy has worked so well for you in the past. The east lost your retirement under BK. Do you blame the company for that? No I believe ALPA national gets that. When you went to LOA 93 was the company the bad guy for that? No again ALPA.

So if the company goes BK and you end up with a worse contract again. What blame will usapa get? Will "national" take the blame on that one?

So I guess you will be leaving for central america then? If it is better there, that is where you should go.

You don't get it. Captain Jack said it so well. The east is in NO HURRY to do this contract until the LOA 84 pay rate arbitration is over.

We on the east are biding our time.

The company, by its actions, seems to be in no hurry to negotiate a new contract. (Did your buddy PArker step up their negotiating schedule when your buddy Wake issued the injunction so that you could get the Nicolau? Didn't think so.)

Rant, scream and yell all you want. (It is fun to watch you guys, but especially you, get your knickers in a knot over this.)

The east is on hold. The company is on hold.

Sit back, relax and enjoy your injunction. Have a beer.

We ain't goin' nowhere.

And if USAPA wins the LOA 93 arbitration, they will hear the yowling from PHX on Mars. Yes, clear through the vacuum of space.

 

[HPDriver]

We on the east are biding our time.

And missing out on thousands of dollars. Fantastic strategy!!!

 

[HPDriver]

And if USAPA wins the LOA 93 arbitration, they will hear the yowling from PHX on Mars. Yes, clear through the vacuum of space.

Not too worried about that ever happening.

 

[USA320Pilot]

In my opinion, the East pilots non-USAPA supporters and the West pilots represent more than 50% of the pilot group and the USAPA vs. West pilot log jam will be broken one of two ways: A merger with an airline larger than US Airways where the NMB will be required by law to administer a Representation Election or the East pilots non-USAPA supporters and the West pilots banding together to elect another union to replace USAPA.

There are a number of reasons why I believe the sentiment has shifted. If you click here, here, here, here, and here you can read why the sentiment is shifting on the East to no longer support USAPA.

Regards,

USAA320Pilot

P.S. For a comprehensive look at why I believe the East pilot sentiment is shifting to no longer support USAPA click here.