US Pilots' Labor Thread 9/4 to 9/17--STAY ON TOPIC

[luvthe9]

I fully understand the fact that you don't want the Nicolau award. But, it's a done deal. Even Mr. Cleary in the PHX USAPA meeting said, regarding negotiations with the company "the Nicolau award is our bargaining position." It's been ordered by the court (DFR) to be implemented unaltered in all negotiations. I guess you get some pleasure out of delaying the inevitable, but at what price to ALL of the pilots? That's where the selfishness comes in. Check out the latest AOL Update at http://www.armyof leonidas.org and read the chart to see just how much every East pilot has lost, just in income alone. Plus, as I mentioned before, a new contract would probably necessitate the recall of many of the furloughed pilots, and result in quite a few upgrades as well.

How is it a done deal, It will be overturned, and the MDA lawsuit will be won also, please understand, NOBODY EAST wants your job. but it always seems you Westies think you are entitled to our East jobs. (right), Why is it every east pilot wants to unmerge this deal but no body from the West wants that. (How about a WEST windfall).

 

[luvthe9]

Why has Mr. Nicolau just retained a lawwler?

 

[flyer63]

I fully understand the fact that you don't want the Nicolau award. But, it's a done deal. Even Mr. Cleary in the PHX USAPA meeting said, regarding negotiations with the company "the Nicolau award is our bargaining position." It's been ordered by the court (DFR) to be implemented unaltered in all negotiations. I guess you get some pleasure out of delaying the inevitable, but at what price to ALL of the pilots? That's where the selfishness comes in. Check out the latest AOL Update at http://www.armyof leonidas.org and read the chart to see just how much every East pilot has lost, just in income alone. Plus, as I mentioned before, a new contract would probably necessitate the recall of many of the furloughed pilots, and result in quite a few upgrades as well.

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what do you expect him to say? something that will get the union fined ? or worse?
Do you understand that the ruling is under appeal?
Do you understand that even with all that it has to be voted in by a majority of the pilots!

do you think there would of been this much outrage, and determination if this list would of been more reasonable? This mess comes from an award that is so messed up it's not even funny.

 

[Metroyet]

***************************
what do you expect him to say? something that will get the union fined ? or worse?
Do you understand that the ruling is under appeal?
Do you understand that even with all that it has to be voted in by a majority of the pilots!

do you think there would of been this much outrage, and determination if this list would of been more reasonable? This mess comes from an award that is so messed up it's not even funny.

Do you know the Law doesn't care what you think?
Do you know what a "Permanent Injunction" is?
Do you realize that if Cleary is dealing disingenuously, (big surprise) that would be contempt of court?

There's plenty of outrage to go around. Your side had ample warning to be "more reasonable" and you failed. This is a self inflicted Mess and it's already cleaned up...you guys just haven't figured that out yet.

 

[cleardirect]

***************************
what do you expect him to say? something that will get the union fined ? or worse?
Do you understand that the ruling is under appeal?
Do you understand that even with all that it has to be voted in by a majority of the pilots!

do you think there would of been this much outrage, and determination if this list would of been more reasonable? This mess comes from an award that is so messed up it's not even funny.

Yes it is being appealed. That does not mean that it will change anything. 95% chance of usapa losing that appeal.

We all understand there has to be a vote. Even the judge understands that. Read the transcripts. He said that once the injunction is in place and usapa gets a contract with the Nicolau in place. Then pilots will vote their best interest. It the contract is good enough then the east will accept the Nicolau and move on. If not usapa keeps trying. But the BPR is going to have to present something eventually. to continue to delay or never present a T/A is not what a union is elected to do.

You say the Nicoalu caused outrage and is not reasonable. Would the east pilots have thrown this big of a hissy fit if Nicolau had stapled the west below all of the east furloughed pilots? Would we have changed unions if your furloughed pilots were placed senior to our senior captains?

Honest answer please.

 

[nycbusdriver]

Do you know the Law doesn't care what you think?
Do you know what a "Permanent Injunction" is?
Do you realize that if Cleary is dealing disingenuously, (big surprise) that would be contempt of court?

There's plenty of outrage to go around. Your side had ample warning to be "more reasonable" and you failed. This is a self inflicted Mess and it's already cleaned up...you guys just haven't figured that out yet.

Sure, Cleary is saying that NIC is the bargaining position. He's under court order, and would be a fool to defy a federal judge.

But you won't see a contract with that in it ratified for years.

So, you won. What did it get you? A stale contract, and the Nic STILL isn't in effect. Good on you! Enjoy your victory. Enjoy your current contract. I will happily live with mine for the years I have left.

 

[traderjake]

So, you won. What did it get you? A stale contract, and the Nic STILL isn't in effect. Good on you! Enjoy your victory. Enjoy your current contract. I will happily live with mine for the years I have left.

Inferior contract to West, almost no upgrades for the last two years and none for the next two.

Is that really your happy choice?

 

[flyer63]

yes I would be happy with that. At least we get our attrition.
and no west guy comes to BOS and takes the seat I've been waiting for 20 years for.

How about the contract states that we include a 10 year fence.

Would you west guys sign?

that would work for me and then you can have and run this place!

 

[Hate2fly]

Why has Mr. Nicolau just retained a lawwler?

Yo Luvthe9,

You are spot on with old man St. Nic! A couple phone calls and the next move was for the old mans lawyer to handle any future calls. St. Nic used the wrong list and the MDA boys are about to blow this thing out of the water! The west is up against the clock and it is ticking fast!

I keep wondering what the west boys judge is going to do when the MDA boys trip the Nic! Wait until the 9th chucks the west deal because of the ripeness issue.

Imagine this.......MDA victory over ALPA and the 9th goes the east way! What would the boys and girls out west do?

I'm still looking forward to my 2 lump sum payouts and LOA 84 pay restoration in the very near future! I almost forgot TA-8 and TA-10........recalls and wow 2010 could be a great year!

Now if we could just get rid of that call sign!

Hate

 

[cactusboy53]

How is it a done deal, It will be overturned, and the MDA lawsuit will be won also, please understand, NOBODY EAST wants your job. but it always seems you Westies think you are entitled to our East jobs. (right), Why is it every east pilot wants to unmerge this deal but no body from the West wants that. (How about a WEST windfall).

Dude;
What exactly are you smokin'?? Have you even bothered to COMPLETELY read the arbitration transcripts, the actual Nicolau award, the DFR transcripts, or any of Judge Wake's orders? If you had, you would still be an angry little beaver BUT you would understand the legal position that USAPA has been placed in.

That said the next round is starting in the Spring. Financial damages could be VERY expensive.

See you in court.

PS Our wishing for the "unmerge" was September 27, 2007. That was the day that the aquisition was completed. We're stuck with you now, for better and we have already seen the worse.

 

[cleardirect]

Why has Mr. Nicolau just retained a lawwler?

Perhaps he is going to sue the east pilots.

Liable and slander come to mind. Harrasement for dragging him to a deposition. Failure to follow binding arbitration.

More likely something completely unrelated to to this.

 

[nic4us]

........ to continue to delay or never present a T/A is not what a union is elected to do.

It is what this association was elected to do. It is plan B, or a side benefit if their DOH land grab fails.

 

[cleardirect]

Yo Luvthe9,

You are spot on with old man St. Nic! A couple phone calls and the next move was for the old mans lawyer to handle any future calls. St. Nic used the wrong list and the MDA boys are about to blow this thing out of the water! The west is up against the clock and it is ticking fast!

I keep wondering what the west boys judge is going to do when the MDA boys trip the Nic! Wait until the 9th chucks the west deal because of the ripeness issue.

Imagine this.......MDA victory over ALPA and the 9th goes the east way! What would the boys and girls out west do?

I'm still looking forward to my 2 lump sum payouts and LOA 84 pay restoration in the very near future! I almost forgot TA-8 and TA-10........recalls and wow 2010 could be a great year!

Now if we could just get rid of that call sign!

Hate

What color is the sky in fantasy world?

We keep hearing that he used the wrong list. Who gave him the wrong list as has been alleged? Why did the east lawyer allow the list to be used? Where were the screams of outrage back then?

Now something to think about. Nicolau still retains jurisdiction. The reason he gave for placing the furloughed pilots below our active pilot was because they brought no job and were FURLOUGHED. The MDA guys had to be furloughed to transfer to MDA. Maybe by some long odds a judge is convinced that they were not really furloughed.

All Nicolau has to do is change his ruling and still place all east pilots junior to Dean Colello below our active guy. There is nothing that says he has to use the same logic with different facts. Read the award. Each merger turns on it’s our facts. Very optimistic to think that a court in NY is going to find that 300 furloughed pilots are going to bring 1400 other furloughed pilots that did not work at MDA along for the ride and get a benefit that they are not entitled to. Talk about stealing jobs from someone and taking something they never expected. Maybe calling a well respected arbitrator names and hauling him into court and disregarding his work and not living up to your word might not be a good idea. I don't know that I would want to go in front of that guy after all that. He could take some of that personally.

Explain why everything would remain static except the list. That in this pie in the sky theory it always works out the best for east guys. When was the last time that happened? Two BK's, pension loss, this merger, arbitration, the DFR case, usapa, ALPA, the current union leadership. Any of that come out in the east favor?

For the ripeness issue. Talk to the BPR or Seham. They can set you straight on this. IF, VERY unlikely it only delays the inevitable it does not kill the law suit. USAPA then has the problem of trying to negotiate with the company for a DOH list after they have accepted the Nicolau. What happens if USAPA wins in the ninth, is allowed to negotiate with the company and still can not get DOH? Who will be to blame for that?

So the ripeness issue is a red herring. Read the court filings. The ripeness issue was litigated heavily during the trial. USAPA lost.

Now imagine 2010 where the ninth upholds judge Wake like they do 95% of the time in the ninth circuit. The snap back grievance is lost. Damages from the Addington case are huge. The MDA case is lost because there really is no case there. The company decides that LGA is losing to much money and they close the base. The 190’s get sold and 250 east pilots get furloughed. We win TA 10, that only affects the west and Doug has to transfer that flying back to the west. Further reductions in east flying.

Enjoy 2010 if you consider that a great year.

There is a simple solution to stop using the call sign. QUIT!

 

[nic4us]

Yo Luvthe9,

You are spot on with old man St. Nic! A couple phone calls and the next move was for the old mans lawyer to handle any future calls. St. Nic used the wrong list and the MDA boys are about to blow this thing out of the water! The west is up against the clock and it is ticking fast!

I keep wondering what the west boys judge is going to do when the MDA boys trip the Nic! Wait until the 9th chucks the west deal because of the ripeness issue.

Imagine this.......MDA victory over ALPA and the 9th goes the east way! What would the boys and girls out west do?

I'm still looking forward to my 2 lump sum payouts and LOA 84 pay restoration in the very near future! I almost forgot TA-8 and TA-10........recalls and wow 2010 could be a great year!

Now if we could just get rid of that call sign!

Hate

You will get your lump sums, but the rest of this is pure fanatasy.

Imagine this, the 9th tosses the appeal, we go to damages with an already liable verdict. Who care what happens in the MDA suit, that is between ALPA and a bunch of furloughed east folks and has no bearing on the NIC, or the West position in the Nic. The West did not submit or certify the east list entered into arbitration.

As to pay restoration, I hope you get it, but if I were the company, I would ask the arbitrator for some sort of restitution for wasting time and money over this, pehaps a fine.

The call sign. Sure lets retire Cactus, and use a combination of the best things that ever happened to USAir. Perhaps a combination of the PSA, Piedmont, America West calls signs.

 

[cleardirect]

August 26, 2009


Re: Naugler v. Air Line Pilots Ass’n
05 CV 4751 (NG)(VVP)____________


Dear Magistrate Judge Pohorelsky:

I write in order to respectfully request an extension of the current discovery scheduling order [Doc. #84]. I conferred today with defendants’ counsel, who joins in this application. The parties jointly request an additional 60 days, until November 30, 2009, to complete discovery, with a concomitant 60-day adjustment to the other dates in the scheduling order.

The main reason for this request is that ALPA’s counsel advises that its decertification as bargaining representative of US Airways pilots deprives it of control over eight witnesses that I plan to depose.1 I had believed defendant had control over the deponents and, thus, that arranging depositions for New York would be uncomplicated. However, plaintiffs have had to proceed by subpoena; depositions are now planned for Pittsburgh, Florida, Delaware, New Hampshire, Vermont, Philadelphia, and Washington, D.C. In addition, these witnesses’ flying schedules creates additional scheduling difficulties.

There are also other complications: ALPA’s counsel informs me that he has a federal trial in Islip, commencing September 14, 2009, rendering it exceedingly difficult to proceed cooperatively in the absence of an extension; and the schedule of ALPA’s President makes it difficult to conduct a complete deposition of him prior to late October.2

Thank you for considering the foregoing.
Respectfully,
Michael S. Haber

By the way this request was denied.

ORDER, by electronic endorsement, denying 86 Motion for Extension of Time to Complete Discovery, without prejudice to renewal for the sole purpose of concluding depositions. Any further application must include a detailed schedule of depositions that cannot be completed by the September 30 discovery deadline. The schedule should provide the name of each deponent, as well as the date and time of the deposition. Ordered by Magistrate Judge Viktor V. Pohorelsky on 9/9/2009.

Looks like someone better start writing some checks. Depositions get REALLY expensive.

Also looks like USAPA is throwing the MDA guys under the bus AGAIN. First with the lump sum admitting that they were furloughed in the payment schedule. Now not cooperating with the investigation.

Question: what kind of lawyer does not know that the union he is suing is no longer the bargaining agent? Did none of the plaintiffs tell this guys there was an election? Does he not understand union structure? Why would he think that ALPA still had control over anyone. Fundamental mistake.

September 30 is coming up fast. Better start racking up those frequent flyer miles to get to those witnesses.