US Pilots' Labor Thread 6/30-7/7 KEEP ON TOPIC-NO PERSONAL COMMENTS

[RIASU_upe]

East, you’ve got their strategy all pegged. Time is not on their side, so they try to erode our morale. They don’t want this to play out, because if it does, they may lose. They got serious $$ problems paying their attorneys now that counts 1&2 are gone. And this replace USAPA? What a joke. Unfortunately a joke fed by our own ALPA hanger-ons who long for the good old days of FPL and not working.

You have sorely mistaken our quest for fairness as a strategy for vanity. For USAPA, it must be true, ignorance is bliss? I can guarantee you one thing, many of us, or shall I venture a guess and say the overwhelming majority of us, want to ride this out until USAPA implodes because of all the damage you have caused the ENTIRE pilot group. I am willing to wait as long as it takes to see that happen. So good luck with the snapback fantasy and with the hopeless appeal. When all is said and done I'll be right here, still standing proud, with my honor and integrity intact....the USAPA legacy will not. "The time for honoring yourself will soon be at an end."

 

[EastUS]

I am willing to wait as long as it takes to see that happen.

So good luck with the snapback fantasy and with the hopeless appeal.

When all is said and done I'll be right here, still standing proud, with my honor and integrity intact....the USAPA legacy will not. "The time for honoring yourself will soon be at an end."

1) It seems we have an accord then.

2) Thank you.

3) "I'll be right here, still standing proud, with my honor and integrity intact...." Amazingly coupled with: "The time for honoring yourself will soon be at an end." Little comment required.

 

[Beancounter]

By no means do I take that as flamebait, but as reasonable questioning. The following is my personal opinion as to how that should have been handled = Factor length of service as the determinant where those furloughed were concerned, versus those working. I saw no perfect solution to that problem, and couldn't personally espouse taking anyone out that was working, in favor of anyone who's performed work contribution was less, nor could I see any ethical case for entirely dismissing the previous work and service done by those then on furlough.

The "local" previous mergers weren't burdened with the issue of having furloughed pilots to factor into the equations. This was pretty much "new turf" to tread...and I feel both sides handled it badly.

When you say, "performed work contribution" I take that to mean for example someone that put in say 10 years service before they were furloughed. I can understand that. Thanks for the reply.

 

[Metroyet]

Metro, I agree, “the award is the award.â€￾ But that’s not the debate or the DFR. The debate is if the new union is stuck with the award and if rejecting NIC is a DFR. The Appeals court will rule, not a straw poll on this chat board.

Actually that IS the DFR. BTW, there IS NO DEBATE either. As far as this countries legal system is concerned, thus far, USAPA is guilty of DFR BECAUSE of their sham of a seniority list that attempts to evade a final and binding arbitration. Where do you guys get this fanciful idea that there is still some room for "discussion and debate"? It's over. Your side is now just wasting it's own money at record speed.

 

[EastUS]

Actually that IS the DFR. BTW, there IS NO DEBATE either. As far as this countries legal system is concerned, thus far, USAPA is guilty of DFR

It's over. Your side is now just wasting it's own money at record speed.

"thus far" speaks for itself. " It's over" has been an often and loudly trumpeted west "certainty" for...hmm..over two years now and counting.

There's little point in stating anything as "FACT" that's simply not so. Regardless of any passionate beliefs or statements from either side....We'll all just have to play this out and see what actually happens.

 

[Metroyet]

"thus far" speaks for itself. " It's over" has been an often and loudly trumpeted west "certainty" for...hmm..over two years now and counting.

Have we been wrong yet? Has USAPA made any promises that didn't materialize? If one was keeping score, which side seems to have the wind at their back?

When did purposely choosing to NOT see the forest through the trees become a viable union objective?

Also, I have to wonder about USAPAs strategy of over-litigating this thing. Obviously, it's their hope that can BK the West and trump the legal rights of those they are legally required to Serve, however, being that they've Already been found liable and are most likely going to have to pay attorney's fees, aren't they just running up their own tab? That only makes sense if USAPA knows they won't be around to actually pay the bill. USAPA brand "unionism" at it's finest.

 

[Captain Underpants]

As for "USAPA could win", yes it is true. But is is possible that aliens could land on Earth tomorrow.

Seriously though, where does this stop? The AAA MEC gets a bad result from Nicolau, ......

hp_fa,

It looks like we are headed for a major dispute under the RLA. Both industry standard pay rates/contract and the seniority issue are strike issues. After 12/31/09 USAPA may proceed through the NMB mediation process while maintaining separate operations and ending with self help. After 30 days of an impasse or 60 days with Presidential intervention all contractual obligations of both parties cease. The company is then free to impose new pay and working conditions and the union is free of legal constraints and may strike. All seniority obligations of both parties end as there is no longer a contract to bind the parties to. Courts may not impose injunctions against unions during a legal strike as the result of the Norris-Laguardia act. No court may deny a union the right to a legal strike by trying to block the section 6 NMB process.

The union may impose a traditional strike, nontraditional rolling strike, or the company may lockout all workers and hire and train new temporary replacements. During a lockout the workers collect unemployment and may displace any temporary workers when the strike is settled. Workers cannot be terminated or disciplined for participating in a legal strike. The strike may continue until the union and company reach acceptable terms and conditions for a new contract to be signed and ratified by the voting union members.

A legal strike can include rolling strikes at the direction of the union. For example all CLT flights could be struck for 3 days or all Boeing flights for 2 days or all International flights for 1 day or PHX flights could be ordered struck for labor day weekend etc. Workers are usually notified just hours prior that their trips are struck work to prevent the company from scheduling strikebreakers. Nontraditional strikes are usually settled within weeks as companies suffer huge costs and lost revenue from disrupted operations.

Courts have ruled that both the company and union may seek to change seniority as a result of a strike. Companies may allow strikebreakers (scabs) to retain positions attained while working during the strike. Unions may punish strikebreakers by changing their seniority as a condition of ending the strike. Punishing strikebreakers by stripping seniority is considered by courts to be a legitimate union objective and not a DFR.

We can hope the major issues can be settled prior to the destructive self help stage of the RLA. The company is not in a strong financial condition and will need the cooperation of the union and all pilots to survive in this competitive industry.

underpants

 

[N924PS]

Good luck with the self help.

It is usually only successful when there is a unified labor force with some leverage involved.

Presently, neither is applicable to the USAirways pilot group. I can think of at least 1600-1800 USAirways pilots that would be more than happy to cross the picket line of a union they chose not to vote for or support. That would certainly negate the Nicolau Award for both sides.

Please identify the last pilot group that was successful in obtaining a better contract by using self help:________________

 

[fatherabraham]

Good luck with the self help.
I can think of at least 1600-1800 USAirways pilots that would be more than happy to cross the picket line of a union they chose not to vote for or support.


N924PS,
Would you include yourself in the 1600-1800?
FA

 

[HPearlyretiree]

"and they wussed out"..."cowardly" etc. I've noticed a pronounced preference within your postings for such terms. Sigh...OK, I'll indulge the issue briefly. Be so good as to explain the inherent "Heroics" involved with abiding by some arbitrator's whim, that one feels to be immoral, unethical and even slightly insane?

I realize that I've likely led a much more sheltered life myself, and wouldn't be readily able to appreciate and understand such a tough-guy perspective...but, I'm willing to listen and learn

Simple, you sign an agreement for binding arbitration, and you live with the results. That is what binding arbitration is. You don't cry foul if you don't like the answer, that is the risk. You man up, and live by your agreement. Not too heavy of a concept. As for tough guy perspective...please...drop the hyperbole.

If you want others to live by their agreements, then you should expect others to want you to live by your agreements.

 

[nic4us]

Nic4, you had 4 beat-up old KLM 747s from 1989-1991. They BKed the company 18 years ago! Not sure what the 350 has to do with any of this, but I doubt if we'll have a single contract when (if ever) it arrives.

I was simply countering the arguement that West had no widebodies "in their future". While doing so I avoided the normal course of : well the east had no airplanes in their future. The West is entittled to a portion of growth, and that would include any "future" widebodies.

 

[Megasnoop]

Actually that IS the DFR. BTW, there IS NO DEBATE either. As far as this countries legal system is concerned, thus far, USAPA is guilty of DFR BECAUSE of their sham of a seniority list that attempts to evade a final and binding arbitration. Where do you guys get this fanciful idea that there is still some room for "discussion and debate"? It's over. Your side is now just wasting it's own money at record speed.

Read EastUS's comments below. The debate is still in the courts and wont be over until the 9th circuit sings. You can appeal their ruling if you want and have the money. Your efforts on this chat to frame the debate with endless denigration and attacks on USAPA, trying to turn accusations into facts arent working. One thing we do have is the money, your money. East rank and file MIGS support the appeal. "Facts" and USAPAwatch", using the same Scottsdale-based server is just noise from the old ALPA FPL-crowd. This will play out. We know theres no Kirby offer on the table. We cant even get to costs until the mediator is able to get both sides to agree on costing models. "Wasting" your money, too.

"thus far" speaks for itself. " It's over" has been an often and loudly trumpeted west "certainty" for...hmm..over two years now and counting.

There's little point in stating anything as "FACT" that's simply not so. Regardless of any passionate beliefs or statements from either side....We'll all just have to play this out and see what actually happens.

EastUS, your right. They really think we will buy their unsubstantiated attacks are facts. This will play out. East pilots demand that. West must be really worried about a loss. Otherwise why all this attack on our union? Attacks started before USAPA was certified. They want this over before the appeal. It wont happen. They got a yawn for a remedy, probably no damages, at least none against USAPA. We'll see how their conspiracy theory depositions turn out. So far, no smoking gun.

Have we been wrong yet? Has USAPA made any promises that didn't materialize? If one was keeping score, which side seems to have the wind at their back?

Please quote the promises USAPA failed on, Metro. Quick contract? That's the last thing we need on the East right now. The appeal and LOA84 have to play out. A win on 84 and single contract is a long way away.

Also, I have to wonder about USAPAs strategy of over-litigating this thing. Obviously, it's their hope that can BK the West and trump the legal rights of those they are legally required to Serve, however, being that they've Already been found liable and are most likely going to have to pay attorney's fees, aren't they just running up their own tab? That only makes sense if USAPA knows they won't be around to actually pay the bill. USAPA brand "unionism" at it's finest.

You guys are loaded, at least thats what AOLs putting out. If you want to see overlitigating, we dont hold a candle to ALPA. From filing to jury in 8 months? Thats overlitigating? Filing appeal, overlitigating? Again, more accusations, no facts.

 

[cleardirect]

hp_fa,

It looks like we are headed for a major dispute under the RLA. Both industry standard pay rates/contract and the seniority issue are strike issues. After 12/31/09 USAPA may proceed through the NMB mediation process while maintaining separate operations and ending with self help. After 30 days of an impasse or 60 days with Presidential intervention all contractual obligations of both parties cease. The company is then free to impose new pay and working conditions and the union is free of legal constraints and may strike. All seniority obligations of both parties end as there is no longer a contract to bind the parties to. Courts may not impose injunctions against unions during a legal strike as the result of the Norris-Laguardia act. No court may deny a union the right to a legal strike by trying to block the section 6 NMB process.

The union may impose a traditional strike, nontraditional rolling strike, or the company may lockout all workers and hire and train new temporary replacements. During a lockout the workers collect unemployment and may displace any temporary workers when the strike is settled. Workers cannot be terminated or disciplined for participating in a legal strike. The strike may continue until the union and company reach acceptable terms and conditions for a new contract to be signed and ratified by the voting union members.

A legal strike can include rolling strikes at the direction of the union. For example all CLT flights could be struck for 3 days or all Boeing flights for 2 days or all International flights for 1 day or PHX flights could be ordered struck for labor day weekend etc. Workers are usually notified just hours prior that their trips are struck work to prevent the company from scheduling strikebreakers. Nontraditional strikes are usually settled within weeks as companies suffer huge costs and lost revenue from disrupted operations.

Courts have ruled that both the company and union may seek to change seniority as a result of a strike. Companies may allow strikebreakers (scabs) to retain positions attained while working during the strike. Unions may punish strikebreakers by changing their seniority as a condition of ending the strike. Punishing strikebreakers by stripping seniority is considered by courts to be a legitimate union objective and not a DFR.

We can hope the major issues can be settled prior to the destructive self help stage of the RLA. The company is not in a strong financial condition and will need the cooperation of the union and all pilots to survive in this competitive industry.

underpants

So this is what it comes down to. Usapa big solution is to strike. Are you guys out of ideas so soon? Still using a 1960’s play book. Real men of genius and all those who follow.

You guys are truly schizophrenic. What have we been hearing since the Nicolau came out? Separate ops forever. There is no way that the east is ever going to vote for a contract.

Now you show up pounding you chest talking tough about a strike.

LOL You guys really do make me laugh. What is the purpose of a strike????? To get a contract correct! Now are you going to strike just to strike and cause everyone problems and prove to the world how smart you are. Or are you really trying to get a contract? Which messes up the we will never vote for a contract separate ops drum beat?

Come on what is it? Separate ops forever or strike for a contract?

Going just a little further. We get a contract in the next year because the big boys strike, that contract WILL include the Nicolau. How does that play into an appeal sometime two years from now? Makes the appeal moot and a waste of money.

In today’s economy is there really anyone on the east that believes that the NMB is going to allow an airline the size of US Airways to go on strike???? Really???? Again using the east own statements. US Air is to important to go out of business. All of the money is made on the east coast we move to many people.

Think gentlemen. If you are so vital to the operation of the country why would the government allow you to shut down??????

Oh, Obama is a friend of labor and would do it for you. Boys he does not know who usapa is or cares. Usapa has NO clout on the hill.

As far as unity within this pilot group. Good luck Kind of embarrassing to call a strike and nobody knows.

Even if there was some miracle three years from now that would allow you to strike. If you can not see the complete disaster and devastation that having the company impose a contract on this group. I will not try to explain it because most likely it would go over your head.

If it makes you feel better to think that usapa has the ability to strike go ahead. But just know that goes in the fantasy box with snap back, winning an appeal and being a real union.

 

[nic4us]

Why cant you say it? DOH!

Thats still debatable. Not a court issue, at least not this time around.

I can say it, the F/As will be merged by DOH, as is their union's policy. However, there was some grumbling out West about this, and possibly an attempt to do something about it.

I do not know what is so debatable. ALPA merger policy was followed. ALPA presented the Nic. The company accepted the Nic. All parties reviewed the Nic and saw that it met the prescribed criteria. The notion that it granted a windfall to one group at the expense of the other is an east fantasy, based on their belief that they should all simply have been senior to the West, and not following their conditions equates to a West windfall.

 

[cleardirect]

Read EastUS's comments below. The debate is still in the courts and wont be over until the 9th circuit sings. You can appeal their ruling if you want and have the money. Your efforts on this chat to frame the debate with endless denigration and attacks on USAPA, trying to turn accusations into facts arent working. One thing we do have is the money, your money. East rank and file MIGS support the appeal. "Facts" and USAPAwatch", using the same Scottsdale-based server is just noise from the old ALPA FPL-crowd. This will play out. We know theres no Kirby offer on the table. We cant even get to costs until the mediator is able to get both sides to agree on costing models. "Wasting" your money, too.

So confident already. That it will be the west that appeals to the SCOTUS. Have this one won do you? What changed? The BPR said they were ready to go to the supreme court. Why is it now the west that will take it?

Again so confident. Suzies arbitration should be out soon. You might want to save that , you have all the money in the world attitude until then.

We “knowâ€￾ there is no offer on the table. The mediator has asked for comprehensive complete proposals from both sides. What do you think the company is going to bring? The Kirby maybe.

What is usapa going to bring? Usapa has not even had a briefing on how PBS works. How in the world is the NAC going to finish scheduling when they have no idea what to put in there?

EastUS, your right. They really think we will buy their unsubstantiated attacks are facts. This will play out. East pilots demand that. West must be really worried about a loss. Otherwise why all this attack on our union? Attacks started before USAPA was certified. They want this over before the appeal. It wont happen. They got a yawn for a remedy, probably no damages, at least none against USAPA. We'll see how their conspiracy theory depositions turn out. So far, no smoking gun.

Unsubstantiaded fact? What is untrue? Usapa has been found liable for DFR. I have a federal jury that said so. A federal judge has released an injunction that will require usapa to implement that Nicolau list.

Question?? If the remedy is such as you say a “yawnâ€￾ why the massive fight to change it? Seham just filed a 31 page brief in opposition to a one paragraph three sentence remedy. If it is nothing why the expense to fight it? Have you seen the plaintiffs response. Second question??? If usapa is so supremely confident about winning on appeal. Why the huge fight to change the “yawnâ€￾ of a remedy? If usapa is going to win on appeal who cares what it says it is immaterial and will go away when Seham explains to the court why Judge Wake does not know what he is doing.

No smoking gun yet. No depsitions yet. Kind of hard to find anything until you look. 5 discovery disputes. Usapa does not even want the plaintiffs to ask ALPA any questions. Come on what is usapa afraid of. Isn’t ALPA the boogeyman where all evil lives. I would think that usapa would want us to look into ALPA. Nope.

You guys are loaded, at least thats what AOLs putting out. If you want to see overlitigating, we dont hold a candle to ALPA. From filing to jury in 8 months? Thats overlitigating? Filing appeal, overlitigating? Again, more accusations, no facts.

Still blaming the boogeyman. ALPA has been gone for over a year. Let it go. 10 years from now if usapa is still here are we going to have to listen to how ALPA is still to blame for everything wrong in the world.

At what point does usapa become responsible for what happens to the US Airways pilots?

Overlitagating. Read the filings.