US Pilots' Labor Thread 6/30-7/7 KEEP ON TOPIC-NO PERSONAL COMMENTS

[HPearlyretiree]

That's a dirty little secret that the East would rather not talk about....

The east is living cognitive dissonance every day....

 

[EastUS]

Unfortunately a joke fed by our own ALPA hanger-ons who long for the good old days of FPL and not working.

For me, I’ll sit back and let the appeal and LOA84 play out. Most (maybe 90%) of us will.

"Time is not on your side"

Oh yes it is.

Agreed in full.

 

[Megasnoop]

The east is living cognitive dissonance every day....

So is the entire industry. Kind of a labor issue, check out the other topics on US Airways for more details. UAL is paying 17% for loans. How long you think they'll last before Parker jumps on them? Think we got labor problems now?

http://www.nypost.com/seven/06302009/busin...ebt__176815.htm

 

[nic4us]

Please explain

john john,

The dispatchers seniority was combined by arbitration as the former east dispatchers wanted DOH and the West dispatchers wanted some kind of relative seniority.

The arbitrator ruled that a DOH seniority integration in this case was appropriate, as the West dispatchers were to see significant gains in income and work rules as a result, and that offset the loss of seniority. I believe they then honored the arbitrator's ruling.

The flight attendants merged according to the policies of the AFA.

The pilots merged according to the policies of ALPA.

So to imply that the West pilots were the "ONLY employee group that refused to honor" DOH is misleading. The West pilots would have honored DOH had the arbitrator ruled as much.

However, it still does remain that the east pilots are the ONLY employee group, to reneg on their union's policies and attempt to ignor an arbitrator's decision and seek special treatment.

 

[cleardirect]

Position check!

For the past 5 years the east has been at the bottom of the barrel for wages. That is a fact. Going forward we are seeing other carriers getting big improvements in their wages.

This is not a dig or to blame anyone. This is reality.

We have heard many times how many billions the east pilots have given up to “saveâ€￾ US Airways. That money is gone and can not made up. Again nobodies fault but it is gone. Moving to today the east is still at bottom feeder wages for at least that next year longer if you manage separate ops. Add that to the lost dollars pile. Starting two years ago that is the east pilots fault. Because once we had a list we should have had a contract.

There is a lot of prophesizing about snap back and a return to some mythical wage. I give it less then 10% chance of winning. But you guys go ahead and hope. Because I guess that is the only plan right now.

We are recently seeing much concern from the east domiciles about REDUCTIONS in flying out east. What happen to that profitable east flying?

Not to be forgotten is the loudly touted $70 million payout. Congratulations. Give up billions collect a few million. Only pilots would consider that a win. But I guess when you are being handed loses left and right anything good has to be pointed to.

Anyone done the math yet? Taking the usapa BPR recommendation that money gets split evenly. Most might get around $11,000 for the next two years. Take taxes out you get about $700 a month for the next two years. Not bad but way short of a permanent raise about triple that plus better everything. Now the senior guys have given up way more then that but are only going to recover a smaller portion because (gasp) the angry FO's want a bigger share.

Let's not forget that most of the 190 guys are going to get less then the full $11,000. What no one told you that. For shame. The guys that need it the most are going to be left out again by usapa.

But I guess that $700 will come in handy to pay the next round of legal assessments.

Lastly the "supremely confident￾ appeal. Right! Good luck with that. Seham has been handed his behind from the beginning. Why would anyone think that he is right this time?

As I see it those are the east pilots hopes. Not a lot to hang your hat on.

 

[hp_fa]

Sorry, hp, I think everyone knows your alleged “neutrality.â€￾ Just like your west buddies, you don’t want the appeal and LOA84 to play out. Because if it does run its course, USAPA could win.

Back to discussing my neutrality again? As I told a poster yesterday if USAPA showed me anything that made sense, was legal and would resolve issues I would welcome it and probably support it. Just like I did status quo ante, remember? (In case you forgot, go back to the notes I posted as soon as I got home from court that day. I mentioned it immediately.)

As for "USAPA could win", yes it is true. But is is possible that aliens could land on Earth tomorrow.

Seriously though, where does this stop? The AAA MEC gets a bad result from Nicolau, waits while the Rice Committee and Wye River play out (because they could win), waits while the Blue Ribbon Committee tries to solve it (because they could win), waits while USAPA forms and loses it its role as bargaining agent (because they could win), USAPA then files a RICO suit against the Cactus 18 (because they could win), loses a rare plaintiffs victory DFR suit and now wants to delay further because they want to spend 12-18 months on appeal (because they could win) and after that they may decide to spend 12-24 months praying for a granting of a Writ of Certiorari (because they could win). Now I will grant you the Supreme Court reference if premature, but where does this end? How much time and money need to be tossed down a rat hole that mostly lands in White Plains?

 

[EastUS]

As I see it those are the east pilots hopes. Not a lot to hang your hat on.

Which would be improved by warmly embracing Nic...umm..how?...exactly, if you please? All the west "supercontract" fantasies are past pathetic as even propaganda offerings. Frankly; what do ANY of you out west claim to actually know about obtaining any truly respectable contract?....given that you've never, ever had one at all?...in your entire history...

 

[Eastisleast]

Back to discussing my neutrality again? As I told a poster yesterday if USAPA showed me anything that made sense, was legal and would resolve issues I would welcome it and probably support it. Just like I did status quo ante, remember? (In case you forgot, go back to the notes I posted as soon as I got home from court that day. I mentioned it immediately.)

As for "USAPA could win", yes it is true. But is is possible that aliens could land on Earth tomorrow.

Seriously though, where does this stop? The AAA MEC gets a bad result from Nicolau, waits while the Rice Committee and Wye River play out (because they could win), waits while the Blue Ribbon Committee tries to solve it (because they could win), waits while USAPA forms and loses it its role as bargaining agent (because they could win), USAPA then files a RICO suit against the Cactus 18 (because they could win), loses a rare plaintiffs victory DFR suit and now wants to delay further because they want to spend 12-18 months on appeal (because they could win) and after that they may decide to spend 12-24 months praying for a granting of a Writ of Certiorari (because they could win). Now I will grant you the Supreme Court reference if premature, but where does this end? How much time and money need to be tossed down a rat hole that mostly lands in White Plains?

DING DING DING We have a winner!!

Lets get a pay raise people.

 

[Megasnoop]

As for "USAPA could win", yes it is true. But is is possible that aliens could land on Earth tomorrow.

Seriously though, where does this stop?

Aliens? To be serious, Id guess it ends with the 9th Circuit. Appeal to the Supreme Court? That's AOLs right, but I doubt if they have the $$ for it. BTW, if the 9th Circuit decision is "as a matter of law," neither side will be able to appeal.

I call them as I see them.

hp, no one’s buying that.

Remember when I was actually out front commending Seham for the status quo ante idea? So I'm sure you will understand that trying to appear more impartial has been impossible under the current fact patterns. After all, if USAPA, and the AAA MEC before them, had such great ideas don't you think they would have convinced the West pilots, Nicolau, Wye River, Judge Wake (in allowing a DFR to go to trial), a jury or Judge Wake again in preparing an injunction for issue probably early next week? If you can't convince even one of them how do you expect me to be consistently in USAPA's corner?

Status quo was so easy. Wake knew his limits messing with the RLA. But right now he's not tracking on the "ante" part. If he doesn't, he's got problems there, too. His remedy could be appealed. We don’t have to give you a reason for nothing we do. Your not going to change a single east opinion with your endless biased chats. For someone who continues to claim no bias, disinterest, how would you have a clue about Wye River other than what your west buddies tell you? Even the West merger attorney walked out of Wye River, telling them in the long run theyd better compromise. That was 17 months ago. Still no resolution, no single contract with appeal and LOA84 to go. West isn’t going to hold their line or break ours on a chat board.

The facts are the facts and USAPA's leadership fails to acknowledge them in order to move on. The real question is why?

The FACTS are we have the right to appeal and we have LOA84 ahead of us. That’s what we’re going to do and no posts by an “impartial observer" are going to change us.

The West had no existing widebody equiptment at the time of merger, but had widebody in the past, and has rights to growth aircraft resulting from the merger. The A350 launch customer status was a direct result of the merger and Airbus' commitment of cash to the deal.

Nic4, you had 4 beat-up old KLM 747s from 1989-1991. They BKed the company 18 years ago! Not sure what the 350 has to do with any of this, but I doubt if we'll have a single contract when (if ever) it arrives.

Exactly. Any reference to a "Win or Loss" is entirely inappropriate. The award was the award. Fair and balanced as determined by neutrals that the interested parties agreed to ahead of time. That's it.

Metro, I agree, “the award is the award.†But that’s not the debate or the DFR. The debate is if the new union is stuck with the award and if rejecting NIC is a DFR. The Appeals court will rule, not a straw poll on this chat board.

 

[Megasnoop]

The dispatchers seniority was combined by arbitration as the former east dispatchers wanted DOH and the West dispatchers wanted some kind of relative seniority.

The arbitrator ruled that a DOH seniority integration in this case was appropriate, as the West dispatchers were to see significant gains in income and work rules as a result, and that offset the loss of seniority. I believe they then honored the arbitrator's ruling.

And 30+% of west dispatchers got furloughed. Significant gains times $0/hr is $0.

The flight attendants merged according to the policies of the AFA.

Why cant you say it? DOH!

The pilots merged according to the policies of ALPA.

Thats still debatable. Not a court issue, at least not this time around.

east pilots are the ONLY employee group, to reneg on their union's policies and attempt to ignor an arbitrator's decision and seek special treatment.

Relax, nic4. It will all be sorted out in the 9th Circuit, unless you have the $$ to appeal to the Supreme Court.

Position check!

For the past 5 years the east has been at the bottom of the barrel for wages. That is a fact. Going forward we are seeing other carriers getting big improvements in their wages.

And for the first 25 years of AWA, you were at the bottom of the barrel and we were at/near the top. That is fact. Whats your point? Other carriers getting big improvements? DAL/NWA/UAL/CAL? Dont think so.

There is a lot of prophesizing about snap back and a return to some mythical wage. I give it less then 10% chance of winning. But you guys go ahead and hope. Because I guess that is the only plan right now.

Its called LOA84 contract pay restoration and we dont care how you handicap chances or the Addington appeal. We will play them both out.

Not to be forgotten is the loudly touted $70 million payout. Congratulations. Give up billions collect a few million. Only pilots would consider that a win. But I guess when you are being handed loses left and right anything good has to be pointed to.

We get the $70 million regardless. There is no company offer on the table. In fact, their backtracking. The mediator cant even get the company to agree on costing model, much less costs. IF (big if) there was a Kirby sweetened offer, its gone. But maybe youll discover it in the ongoing depos (not).

Lastly the "supremely confident� appeal. Right! Good luck with that. Seham has been handed his behind from the beginning. Why would anyone think that he is right this time?

As I see it those are the east pilots hopes. Not a lot to hang your hat on.

Breeger tossed as not ripe. Counts 1&2 (show me the money) remanded, now gone. Huge $30M in arbitration (Seham law firm) for disabled pilots 401k contributions. We'll see how Suzie, RJs and reduced flying turn out. BTW, that reduced flying brings back lots of West pilots, fewer East.

 

[NYGiantsFan90]

Seems someone is counting their chickens before their eggs hatch (LOA84)

 

[hp_fa]

Status quo was so easy.

So have you heard any West ideas that you thought were good, said so, and the Court adopted it or them as soon as you heard that idea expressed?

Easy or not I said so at the time. As I said, if I hear any good USAPA ideas I will acknowledge them. However it may be a long wait between any such pronouncements by me because I have a significant lack of faith in the legal advice that USAPA seems to be getting and/or the instructions they are giving SSM&P.

(I know, I know, they don't have to keep me happy. But have they done anything significant that has made Judge Wake convinced that USAPA is correct in their view of things? How about the members of USAPA? How long do you expect them to hold the handrails of a ship that is already damaged and running at full speed in an ice field with no lookouts and a blind captain? But, you are absolutely right. You don't have to please me.)

 

[HPearlyretiree]

USAirway make an agreement with all vendors property management and labor groups
And US fail to kept there agreements, union are about representing the majority of there membership with gold standards

Sorry, not the topic at hand. That is a bad logical fallacy. And its deflection.

US is a company, USAPA is a union. Company does what it does to survive, and the company agreed to Nic. The East pilots legally bound to its legal agreement for binding arbitration, and they wussed out.

Throw out the "its the evil company" crap, not germane to the argument, and a weak attempt.

 

[EastUS]

That is a bad logical fallacy.

So..curiosity has me here; What would constitute a "good" logical fallacy?

 

[EastUS]

The East pilots legally bound to its legal agreement for binding arbitration, and they wussed out.

"and they wussed out"..."cowardly" etc. I've noticed a pronounced preference within your postings for such terms. Sigh...OK, I'll indulge the issue briefly. Be so good as to explain the inherent "Heroics" involved with abiding by some arbitrator's whim, that one feels to be immoral, unethical and even slightly insane?

I realize that I've likely led a much more sheltered life myself, and wouldn't be readily able to appreciate and understand such a tough-guy perspective...but, I'm willing to listen and learn