US Pilots labor thread 5/3-

[cleardirect]

I hope that all of you east pilots read the release from the United merger committee. Read that and then go back and reread the releases from the AAA merger committee and MEC. The difference is black and white between rational thought and emotional rhetoric. These are the words of someone NOT involved in our fight. Some of you attack posters that are not US Ariways pilots or pilot for agreeing with the west. There are a whole lot of people that have looked at this and agree with us. You guys have put yourselves on an island with your continued demand of something that you were never going to get.

Factors that must be considered in constructing a fair and equitable integrated seniority list in no particular order and with no particular weight include but are not limited to: career expectations, longevity, status and category.

Here is the “new” ALPA merger policy that the east has been pointing to. Funny nowhere in there do I see DOH as some have taken to reading it.

In the interest of fostering open communications between MECs, new policy language discourages arbitrators from admitting MEC communications as evidence.

I go back to my first comment. It the AAA MEC had been honest in the communication with the pilots your expectations would have been different and more realistic.

What has not changed is that the Integrated Seniority List is not subject to ratification by either MEC or pilot group. Another constant is a pilot’s position relative to his pre-merger brother or sister pilot: your internal relative seniority cannot be changed.

I think you guys have finally come to understand that you never had a vote on the list, just the contract. This also addresses the MDA concerns. Your seniority can not be reordered internally. So if you were furloughed and went to MDA and a guy senior to you was furloughed and did not go to MDA you cannot jump him on the list and he should not get some benefit of moving up the list because you decided to go work for some carrier. Find the most senior furloughed pilot and everyone else junior to him is furloughed, period stop go no further.

When we first met as a committee, we realized that one of the greatest challenges we would face was our work on behalf of our furloughed pilots. Past seniority integration arbitration awards have generally placed at least some pilots on furlough as of the date of the merger announcement at the bottom of the integrated list. While past decisions aren’t “binding” on future cases – each of which will turn on its own facts - and while ALPA Merger Policy has changed since those decisions were issued, we would be less than candid with you if we did not point out this historical treatment of furloughed pilots in seniority list integration arbitrations

So for all of you guys that think AAA was treated any different than anyone else here you go. Furloughed pilots go to the bottom of the list. 1 year or 17 years furloughed is furloughed. Again here is a merger committee being honest with the pilots, telling them what could happen. Did the east MEC or MC ever tell you that furloughed pilots might be below active pilots? No! Then they failed to explain your expectations.

Subject only to the caveat that experience in seniority integration arbitration tells us that to be effective with the arbitrators we have to maintain credible positions supported by facts and logic rather than emotion,

What do you think they are talking about here? Could it be the position of the east MEC/MC and your refusal to accept credible positions supported by facts and logic? We have been telling you that everyone else in the industry knows who and what the east pilots are and how you operate.

We pledge to communicate with you frequently, openly and candidly: it may not always be what you want to hear, but it will be the unvarnished truth.

Again this goes back to the MEC/MC unrealistic promise of getting “DOH because that is the only fair way to do it”. Or the MC flat refusal to even discuss anything other than DOH/LOS because the east pilots would have removed them and replaced them with someone that would get DOH. None of you wanted to hear the truth and no one in a leadership role from the east had the guts to tell you that you were not going to get DOH/LOS. Imagine now if 5 years ago you had been told the truth and your expectation were not DOH. Where would we be now? A new contract and integrated operation. Possibly merged wit h someone as the largest airline in the world. Or now as the smallest hub and spoke and the lowest paid.

In this instance, that noise and confusion stems directly from the many hypothetical seniority scenarios promulgated by those who claim to be in the “know.” They may even claim that certain methodologies are more relevant than others. We urge you to resist the temptation to succumb to the noise. Those of us who have been thinking about seniority integration in general and integration with Continental in particular - including your Merger Committee and its supporting professionals who have participated in all of the recent merger activity in the industry - are unwilling to “predict” at this early stage how the integration will turn out.

Once again pointing a finger straight at the east MEC/MC for promising DOH. For telling you that DOH/LOS was the only fair way to do this. That the arbitrator could not merge the list any other way. You east guys have left your mark on the industry for sure. That mark is how not to run a merger, before, during or after. If only the east leadership had been honest with you from the beginning this would have been different. But even now the new leadership at usapa is not being honest with pilots. They would rather spin an event then tell the truth.

A loss in district court makes them supremely confident of a win further on down the line. They expected to lose the district case, they expected to lose the injunction, they will tell you they expected to lose the LOA 93 grievance. Too bad east leadership never told you the truth that they expected to lose before the fact only after and only after they failed to honestly tell you what to expect.

 

[nic4us]

Yes, you are correct, I stated it wrong. I think you know what I meant, as you said those that had east seniority numbers had resigned them before they were furloughed, or they would have indeed been able to return. They saw a better number with the NIC award. The 6 that came back east retained their original east numbers, they didn't start over with the new hires, correct?

When you get time how about answering my original question, show me an east pilot that is flying a west airplane in place of a west pilot.

It is my understanding that the West hires resigned their east seniority numbers when post merger/post Nic, their east recall forced their hand to make a decision. That decision being their Nic seniority very near the bottom, or their furloughed east seniority on the bottom, and of course they took Nic.

But all of this is symptomatic of the problems associated with usapa's welching on the Nic. You asked for me to show you an east pilot flying a West airplane in place of a West pilot. Of course due to seperate ops I cannot show you a former east pilot flying a former West aircraft serial number, but what I can show you is this.

When two companies merge, everyone knows things will change. The former companies combine to try and bring forth the strengths and shed their weaknesses. The capturing of these synergies requires some rearranging of both former companies infrastructure, and quite often a reduction in force. In our case a redesign of the domestic market and addition of some european destinations made sense. It would be foolish to have competing routing within the same company, so things changed. For instance,Instead of the West operation funneling passengers each night from west coast cities into LAS, to catch a night bank of flights to their east coast destination, the West now flies a night bank directly from the West coast cities to CLT and PHL, where pax can connect to their final destination in the overall route. ( this alone accounts for the 24% number). We are still serving the same SAN-EWR or SEA-MIA market, just thru PHL and CLT instead of LAS.

So how does this mean an east pilot is flying a west airplane? It does not, however, it could be argued, and probably wil be in the damages trial, that with the exception of the top 517, every former east pilot is potentially sitting in a seat that could be occupied by a former West pilot with more seniority. The east has added 5 A330's, the top payscale, these are new aircraft, not replacement, and should have 1/3rd of those additional seats being occupied by former West pilots. But how many are, a total of 0. We added the ATA 757 aircraft, the West has an IOU for the seats on that. We added the e190s, again an IOU. We have 142 West pilots furloughed while east pilots junior to them are employed, West captains displaced while east f/o's have upgraded and on and on, throughout the entire seniority list.

So how does this violate the TA? In the strictest sense of the TA's seperate ops loophole, it does not, but in the original intent of the TA it most certainly does. This is best highlighted by another aspect of the TA, that in the strictest sense could reek havoc on the short term gains the east is trying to capture. The TA calls for no system flush in the construction of the list. It does not prohibit system flush in the implementation of the list. The list is complete, accepted by the company, and had implemenataion occurred when completed, no active employee flush would have occurred, nor any furloughed bump/flush been a problem. However, since the company elected to play the sides against each other, and the east decided to try and renege on the arbitration, system flush is a real possibility. If flush does not occur, we have violated the TA by allowing furloughs to bump active employees. Now once a contract is reached, the entire West pilot group has a grievence to demand flush, and if usapa impedes that demand they are again liable for DFR.

To sum, the ATA 757 and e190 seats situation was the product of arbitration. The allowing furloughing out of seniority during the period of seperate ops, a product of arbitration. Most notably, the Nic award, was the product of arbitration. We have gone so far past the intent of the TA that the east will find their hiding behind it as method to continue thwarting the implementation of the Nic, may cost them severly, because they are occupying seats that belong to former West pilots.

 

[Pi brat]

It is my understanding that the West hires resigned their east seniority numbers when post merger/post Nic, their east recall forced their hand to make a decision. That decision being their Nic seniority very near the bottom, or their furloughed east seniority on the bottom, and of course they took Nic.

But all of this is symptomatic of the problems associated with usapa's welching on the Nic. You asked for me to show you an east pilot flying a West airplane in place of a West pilot. Of course due to seperate ops I cannot show you a former east pilot flying a former West aircraft serial number, but what I can show you is this.

When two companies merge, everyone knows things will change. The former companies combine to try and bring forth the strengths and shed their weaknesses. The capturing of these synergies requires some rearranging of both former companies infrastructure, and quite often a reduction in force. In our case a redesign of the domestic market and addition of some european destinations made sense. It would be foolish to have competing routing within the same company, so things changed. For instance,Instead of the West operation funneling passengers each night from west coast cities into LAS, to catch a night bank of flights to their east coast destination, the West now flies a night bank directly from the West coast cities to CLT and PHL, where pax can connect to their final destination in the overall route. ( this alone accounts for the 24% number). We are still serving the same SAN-EWR or SEA-MIA market, just thru PHL and CLT instead of LAS.

So how does this mean an east pilot is flying a west airplane? It does not, however, it could be argued, and probably wil be in the damages trial, that with the exception of the top 517, every former east pilot is potentially sitting in a seat that could be occupied by a former West pilot with more seniority. The east has added 5 A330's, the top payscale, these are new aircraft, not replacement, and should have 1/3rd of those additional seats being occupied by former West pilots. But how many are, a total of 0. We added the ATA 757 aircraft, the West has an IOU for the seats on that. We added the e190s, again an IOU. We have 142 West pilots furloughed while east pilots junior to them are employed, West captains displaced while east f/o's have upgraded and on and on, throughout the entire seniority list.

So how does this violate the TA? In the strictest sense of the TA's seperate ops loophole, it does not, but in the original intent of the TA it most certainly does. This is best highlighted by another aspect of the TA, that in the strictest sense could reek havoc on the short term gains the east is trying to capture. The TA calls for no system flush in the construction of the list. It does not prohibit system flush in the implementation of the list. The list is complete, accepted by the company, and had implemenataion occurred when completed, no active employee flush would have occurred, nor any furloughed bump/flush been a problem. However, since the company elected to play the sides against each other, and the east decided to try and renege on the arbitration, system flush is a real possibility. If flush does not occur, we have violated the TA by allowing furloughs to bump active employees. Now once a contract is reached, the entire West pilot group has a grievence to demand flush, and if usapa impedes that demand they are again liable for DFR.

To sum, the ATA 757 and e190 seats situation was the product of arbitration. The allowing furloughing out of seniority during the period of seperate ops, a product of arbitration. Most notably, the Nic award, was the product of arbitration. We have gone so far past the intent of the TA that the east will find their hiding behind it as method to continue thwarting the implementation of the Nic, may cost them severly, because they are occupying seats that belong to former West pilots.

Well, in the end I guess it will be up to the judge to decide if it is the intent or the wording of the TA that matters.Sort of like the LOA 93 greivance. As you say, in the strictest sense, following what the TA says there is no implementation of a joint seniority list until there is a joint contract, period. It's a loophole that DL and NW learned from and did something about. Had the list gone badly for the west you would have had the same right and could have tied it up by delaying a contract. There is no way to know for sure if a joint contact would have been reach by now.

I do see your point about the 330s, and I imagine the company has just worked around it to save money. But, going back to intent vs. reality, the east hasn't actually "grown".

Thanks for answering my question honestly.

 

[Borescope]

As an outsider, it appears that the company is laughing all the way to the bank. The East pilots are like ambulance chasing attorneys. Didn't like the decision they got the first time (Nic) so find someone else that may give them a favorable decision. You have cost your fellow pilots a lot of money and in the end you are most likely going to end up right back at the beginning. Your like a dog chasing his tail.

 

[redheadtempe33]

As an outsider, it appears that the company is laughing all the way to the bank. The East pilots are like ambulance chasing attorneys. Didn't like the decision they got the first time (Nic) so find someone else that may give them a favorable decision. You have cost your fellow pilots a lot of money and in the end you are most likely going to end up right back at the beginning. Your like a dog chasing his tail.

Hope you have your flame-proof suit on ...
That said, I'm sure a lot of us "outsiders" agree with you, but at this point, it is really up to the pilots themselves to work out this mess.

 

[Phoenix]

As an outsider, it appears that the company is laughing all the way to the bank. The East pilots are like ambulance chasing attorneys. Didn't like the decision they got the first time (Nic) so find someone else that may give them a favorable decision. You have cost your fellow pilots a lot of money and in the end you are most likely going to end up right back at the beginning. Your like a dog chasing his tail.

Just think, ALPA couldn't keep the dogs in their cage and now this merger has been languishing for more than 30 dog-years.

Call me when you get your ballot. Woof, woof.

 

[Freebird]

Just think, ALPA couldn't keep the dogs in their cage and now this merger has been languishing for more than 30 dog-years.

Call me when you get your ballot. Woof, woof.

Cleary wont enter negotiations and get a contract, because he KNOWS it will PASS. His pilots will sell him out, he knows it and Parker knows it. Its just a matter of time.

Meanwhile, he's keeping you all hamstrung with bogus legal maneuvering, taking advantage of you and your hope for DOH. Not going to happen boys. The sooner you realize this, the better off you will be.

 

[Phoenix]

Cleary wont enter negotiations and get a contract, because he KNOWS it will PASS. His pilots will sell him out, he knows it and Parker knows it. Its just a matter of time.

Meanwhile, he's keeping you all hamstrung with bogus legal maneuvering, taking advantage of you and your hope for DOH. Not going to happen boys. The sooner you realize this, the better off you will be.

Hey, I said call me when you get your ballot!

And when did we become boys? I thought we were dogs! What is it already?

 

[HPearlyretiree]

Hope you have your flame-proof suit on ...
That said, I'm sure a lot of us "outsiders" agree with you, but at this point, it is really up to the pilots themselves to work out this mess.

I agree with both of ya. The east delaying tactics are just gonna hurt them more in the long run.

 

[Barrister]

Amazing that someone who isn't a pilot here, or says they are not- is so active a poster and so intertwined with the west viewpoint. Hard to take you seriously Metro to be honest. I wonder what we would hear from the westies if an East "friend" showed up, totally supporting the east position? Guaranteed, a totally different reception. Whatever, free country and board. We will just continue to take your view with a dumptruck load of salt to ward off the ALPA taste.

Right on ....just like "We are the laughing stock and every one thinks we are wrong" ....right up until until the point where you splain
that a new hire was placed senior to a 17 year guy who never missed a paycheck. I tell my people this,

You work for an accounting firm that works 7 days a week. there are two of you, someone will work on weekends. You and your co-worker have been there 20 years and 15 years respectively. You merge with another accounting firm who has 2 workers and have been there 5 years and 10 years respectively, now: WHO WORKS WEEKENDS????????

100% OF THE TIME MY PEEPS GET IT RIGHT, INCLUDING MY 8 YEAR OLD GRANDAUGHTER.

VNIIMN
NPJB

 

[Metroyet]

Right on ....just like "We are the laughing stock and every one thinks we are wrong" ....right up until until the point where you splain
that a new hire was placed senior to a 17 year guy who never missed a paycheck. I tell my people this,

You work for an accounting firm that works 7 days a week. there are two of you, someone will work on weekends. You and your co-worker have been there 20 years and 15 years respectively. You merge with another accounting firm who has 2 workers and have been there 5 years and 10 years respectively, now: WHO WORKS WEEKENDS????????

100% OF THE TIME MY PEEPS GET IT RIGHT, INCLUDING MY 8 YEAR OLD GRANDAUGHTER.

VNIIMN
NPJB

How does ANY of this matter? You're leaving out 99.998% of the rest of the story. It's called a lie by omission. No need to rehash. You know how it was supposed to work, you know what was agreed to, you know binding meant binding and you know that it's not going to change as well...ever. Being that this is NEVER going to go away, (because of the 99.998% you're consistently forgetting) wouldn't it make sense to make a real effort to get a better contract? Aside from yourself, and a group of totally innocent West pilots, who the hell do you think you're hurting? What do you think you're gaining by delay?

All I see are a group of rabidly emotional, irrational people who do nothing but continually self inflict wounds with the certainty that it's "progress".

 

[Flippin43]

Right on ....just like "We are the laughing stock and every one thinks we are wrong" ....right up until until the point where you splain
that a new hire was placed senior to a 17 year guy who never missed a paycheck. I tell my people this,

You work for an accounting firm that works 7 days a week. there are two of you, someone will work on weekends. You and your co-worker have been there 20 years and 15 years respectively. You merge with another accounting firm who has 2 workers and have been there 5 years and 10 years respectively, now: WHO WORKS WEEKENDS????????

100% OF THE TIME MY PEEPS GET IT RIGHT, INCLUDING MY 8 YEAR OLD GRANDAUGHTER.

VNIIMN
NPJB

Try asking the more accurate version of the same question.

Who works weekends at your company............? Answer..................the guy on the bottom. ( this is easy right!!)

Merge 2 companies...............who is going to work weekends?.....................Answer..............the guy on the bottom of both companies (more work to be done)

Bottom guy from company 1 (not bankrupt) is a new hire, Bottom guy on company 2 (bankrupt, weeks from shutdown) is a 17 year employee.

Both guys WERE on the bottom and are STILL on the bottom. Career expectations which are to be considered, have been preserved. Though in one employee they have been extended beyond what was expected before the Merge, but hey good for him.


Flip

 

[traderjake]

As an outsider, it appears that the company is laughing all the way to the bank. The East pilots are like ambulance chasing attorneys. Didn't like the decision they got the first time (Nic) so find someone else that may give them a favorable decision. You have cost your fellow pilots a lot of money and in the end you are most likely going to end up right back at the beginning. Your like a dog chasing his tail.

We are the dumbest group of pilots on the planet.

We fight to keep the worst contract in the industry while refusing to see that we are wrong even in the face of overwhelming evidence.

No wonder pilots at the other airlines want nothing to do with us.

 

[nic4us]

Right on ....just like "We are the laughing stock and every one thinks we are wrong" ....right up until until the point where you splain
that a new hire was placed senior to a 17 year guy who never missed a paycheck. I tell my people this,

You work for an accounting firm that works 7 days a week. there are two of you, someone will work on weekends. You and your co-worker have been there 20 years and 15 years respectively. You merge with another accounting firm who has 2 workers and have been there 5 years and 10 years respectively, now: WHO WORKS WEEKENDS????????

100% OF THE TIME MY PEEPS GET IT RIGHT, INCLUDING MY 8 YEAR OLD GRANDAUGHTER.

VNIIMN
NPJB

Fortunately for all of us, your peeps and 8 year old grandaughter were not on the arbitration panel.

Fortunate for the West, because we did not get screwed by the east merger committee's irrational proposal.

Fortunate for you, because your clever and insightful 8 year old did not have to explain to grandpa why he still has to work weekends.

 

[Black Swan]

Cleary wont enter negotiations and get a contract, because he KNOWS it will PASS. His pilots will sell him out, he knows it and Parker knows it. Its just a matter of time.

Meanwhile, he's keeping you all hamstrung with bogus legal maneuvering, taking advantage of you and your hope for DOH. Not going to happen boys. The sooner you realize this, the better off you will be.

Major miscalculation, but if it makes you feel better, believe it.