US Pilots labor thread 5/3-

[Black Swan]

Swan, for just a second pretend you are a real appellate judge and your job is to see that justice is done. Now pretend that an injunctive relief case has been presented to a panel in which you were a member and that a majority of that panel felt that the injunction that had been issued by the trial court was improper. Wouldn't you want that improperly issued injunction lifted at the earliest possible moment since that injunction was improperly harming a party in that case?

If, as you contend, the longer this takes the better it is for the appellant, why didn't the court issue an order lifting the injunction and in that order say that an opinion would follow? Appellate courts do use that procedure when it will take time to write and issue an opinion, but they want the parties to know the ruling and not have a party wrongfully subject to an improper injunction while they write the opinion. That, IMO, is the fault with your theory.

HP, if this was a clear backing of Wake, this would have been out long ago. There is a lot of digging going on. This is not an easy case, or it would have been out much sooner. My opinion- it is they see where Wake went where he should not have. If they let this go, it causes massive problems going forward for labor. They are not going to let this stand. We will see soon enough. Regards.

 

[HogDriver]

Hogdriver, believe it or not, I am aware of the particulars that concern yourself and about 200 of your fellow pilots. I am also aware that none of you managed to raise a fuss over your situation until after the arbitration was completed. The time to challenge your standing on your seniority list would have been prior to your MEC handing over a certified list to the west MEC.

Ames...Kudos for being more familiar with the MDA thing than some on the east side. However, you are mistaken in our lack of attempts at correcting the situation prior to Mr. Nic. I actually was in training for "mainline" at the time our MEC was preping the trial. Our bus class was all 170 guys. One of our negotiators came into class and made a presentation showing the list they were sending to nic and we were included on that list. Saw it with my own eyes. By that time our MEC had realized the shell game that was played on us and was moving to make things right...and also during this time the MDA division was being sold to Republic. The fact we believed, and saw the list that would include us as "mainline", we thought we were being taken care of finally. Between that moment and Mr. Nic getting lists somehow we again got dropped. We are in a class action lawsuit against ALPA right now trying to determine who either A...sold us down the river...or B screwed up like you read about.

I am also aware that you left US Airways in response to a furlough letter and returned to the company in response to a recall letter. Am I correct? Did you ever raise a challenge to either of those letters? You will have to try a lot harder to convince me that you never left mainline. I believe you are having enough trouble trying to convince the court system of the same. Please explain to your fellow east pilots who chose not to work at MDA while furloughed why you should step ahead of them on the seniority list because you "never left mainline" while flying a commuter.

Did get a letter...both times. However, when Republic came along to buy MDA, we (MEC) had a side letter with the company that both sides agreed to in the event of a MDA sale. Two options 1) If MDA sold whole...pilots go to buyer with seniority, pay, vacation etc. Option 2) Spelled out different parameters for a partial sale. Co. announced a whole MDA sale...then promptly said they did not have to abide by any of the side letter. We grieved it...went to arbitrator and in testimony before the arbitrator, Mr. Jerry Glass...a company officer...under oath...stated US Air did not have to abide because all they were doing was selling off a fleet type from MAINLINE. We lost the grievance, and the shell game was complete. MDA was an Express operation when it suited the company and a mainline fleet when it suited the company. Nice guys, huh? On your other point...we did argue...loudly to our MEC...that with MDA being on the certificate and not a stand alone, they MUST do a formal recall for the pilots that passed on MDA or went to Jet for Jobs. Unfortunatly it fell on deaf ears for a long time, and then MDA was being sold. One more point in our DFR against ALPA

You say the Nic catches a momentary downswing - is fifteen years momentary? Let's not keep getting wrapped around the axle regarding longevity. It is only worth something at your original company. I have already explained in my last response to you about relativity in comparing two separate seniority lists.

US Air was more of a yo-yo than a downswing for 15 years. Prior to 9/11 I was senior enough for 767 f/o or Jr Capt on reserve. Then came the slide. A year later I was heading to the street.

I know that you believe it is debatable whether AWA was growing and thriving at merger time, although you admit that the east was "on the ropes". America west had three successive quarters of profitability while east was weeks away from liquidation. Would anyone deny that had the east liquidated that the entire industry would have benefited, including AWA? Like him or not Parker is no dope and he would have made the very best of that situation. I also believe that Parker did the best thing in putting this merger together, thus saving thousands of jobs. It has not been good for me but, this isn't about me. I have more faith in him than most and believe that he can do more with this place if given the chance.

You could be right. But who is to say the 3 quarters was not the last of any chance at profit? You have been around long enough to know we are in a tough industry, and Am West was not the strongest out there. Just look at LAS today. Parker says we both would die with out the other...I tend to agree.

I know that the vast majority of east pilots believe, as you do, that Nicolau didn't get it right. You stated once that he had no clue who you were (in regards to MDA) while you were trying not to bore me with the details of your plight. I am here to tell you that Mr.Nicolau knew exactly who you were and exactly what he was doing and am willing to bet that the majority of east pilots did not read the transcripts of the arbitration nor the text of the arbitrated award.

I did review the award when it came out, but not since. I could be wrong but my impression at the time was Mr. Nic saw us on a list as furloughed when we thought it was going forward as mainline. See above.

I am glad that we agree that we must move on and am quite sure that we will once the court speaks.

PS: did you fly the only airplane in the Air Force that received bird strikes from the rear? 🙂

The mighty Hog...counter to popular belief has never been struck from the rear by birds....we could however, according to tech orders, in a pinch replace a broken airspeed indicator with a calender. Ugliest and most feared attack aircraft flying....gotta love it

 

[Phoenix]

The mighty Hog...counter to popular belief has never been struck from the rear by birds....we could however, according to tech orders, in a pinch replace a broken airspeed indicator with a calender. Ugliest and most feared attack aircraft flying....gotta love it

...and Army doctrine for operational maneuver planning allows for a single Hog to be substituted for an artillery company. Most infantry would also take a Hog over a dozen tanks... but they have to be discrete when they tell you that.

 

[OTTER574]

I would, but I am going to, for your sake, save any legal fees for the next level.

black swan, you ask a question, don't like the answer and than its like a dance that never ends with you and certain east folks. legal fees are fine but remember lawyer and damages FEES because this will suit me just fine.

 

[OTTER574]

I would, but I am going to, for your sake, save any legal fees for the next level.

Black Swan, please remember the lawyer and damages fees will be on going until usapa stops its illegal extortion against the west class. Part of that FEDERAL PERMANENT INJUNCTION thing again.

 

[Pilot692]

East Pilot/Usapa supporter,

Somewhat hypothetical question for you.

If true that Parker offered Delta +1 % in exchange for Usapa relieving the COC to allow a merger to go forward with UAL (or anyone). And Cleary/Mowery agreed, except; wanted Parker to accept a DOH list, to which Parker balked and said "Guys, No Deal. There is an injunction in place. We have already accepted the Nicolau Award" And yet Cleary ran off to desperately file an Emergency Stay, only to be denied; and possibly hurting the chance of any future merger, is this something you will continue to support?

Assuming the above is true, should Cleary/Mowery have run this by the BPR for a vote on what to do? Or just let these guys haphazardly make decisions that can cost you your job, with reckless abandon? Are you so committed to the cause of DOH (which you are not going to get) that you will continue to fight among yourselves....over what may amount to nothing, should the 9th rule against you?

Isnt it time to replace the leadership at Usapa for someone who's willing to represent the needs of ALL US Airways pilots? East and West?

Please respond with comprehensible answers/posts.

Parker offered Cleary nothing of the sort. Renders the rest of your assumption dead.

 

[Metroyet]

This, is right on the mark. I think the West guys cannot, will not put their heads around the fact that there is no way most east guys will vote for a deal that may give them 10k a yr. up front, but deny a much bigger return over time. They cannot get this into their heads. We are looking long term, and any deal with the Nic is a BAD investment.

So then you don't have any problems proving this right? How about you all put your collective votes where your mouths are and let's see the fallout. A decent contract will pass. You know it. You can't hold it off forever. The dam is crumbling.

 

[cleardirect]

Why is a west ruling easier than an east ruling? There are two or more points of view, but only one case. How long do these rulings normally take? Are we beyond the average or does it just feel like a long time?

Randomly selected 25 ninth circuit cases. Average time from argument to decision is about 6 months. We are at five months now. So sit back and relax.

The case was taken on an expedited manner so we expected an expedited answer. I guess the ninth does not see it that way. HPFA has it right. This case is going to go way beyond this single case and have far reaching implications to many areas of law. The Addington case will be cited often.

Hopefully during an ethics hearing for Seham.

 

[lynyrdskynyrd]

Class, this lawyer is an example of a less than ethical dipstick....

Poetic justice.

 

[Flippin43]

HP, if this was a clear backing of Wake, this would have been out long ago. There is a lot of digging going on. This is not an easy case, or it would have been out much sooner. My opinion- it is they see where Wake went where he should not have. If they let this go, it causes massive problems going forward for labor. They are not going to let this stand. We will see soon enough. Regards.

BS,

You often cite that Judge Wake went where he should not have. It seems you believe that Labor law and the NMB are stand alone and can conduct themselves as they see fit, not to be interfered with. If this were the case, why do we have so much Federal Court intervention as evidenced by the case law cited by both sides. Clearly Labor needs correction when they go astray. Federal Courts serve that need.

This will not be a problem for Labor going forward. It will not precipitate suing every time a proposal by the union is disliked by several members. That is not what this this case is about. If it was, it would not have made it past motions to dismiss. This is a case about a union changing a proposal that was pre agreed to by all parties thru a process that would result in a NON revisable proposal, (ie final and binding) Though had they "revisited" this proposal in a manner that treated everyone fairly with respect to their standing on the Nic list (yes it was a proposal, but it was supposed to be final and binding and it was accepted by the company so therefore it existed and was the starting point) So had they not, in reference to the Nic list totally advanced the East pilots at the expense of the West pilots, they might have changed it. But as you know and probably encouraged, the usapa braintrust was tremendously greedy and as a result, will fail in bringing a DOH list to LCC.

You seem to have studied this a bit. You should know then that the responsibility of the CBA (usapa) is to represent everyone fairly, Members or not. When you advance a Majority group at the expense of a Minority group, a DFR violation has occurred. How does what usapa has done not fit that description to a T.? To be more clear if there was no Nic list, you could have sold that DOH business all day long and the Supreme Court would have your back. You think usapa can ignore the Nic list and put the AWA list and AAA list together as it sees fit (DOH) Wrong and thats what this case is about and it does not represent a threat to labor in any way.


As has been pointed out and maybe you missed it. Most of the 9th Circuit opinions take 6 months to formulate, they know this going in. If, as you say this is taking so long because they have real problems with what Judge Wake has done with his Injunction. How do you reconcile them allowing usapa to be exposed to being harmed by the existance of the Injunction as seham argues???


Flip

 

[Black Swan]

So then you don't have any problems proving this right? How about you all put your collective votes where your mouths are and let's see the fallout. A decent contract will pass. You know it. You can't hold it off forever. The dam is crumbling.

Dam crumbling? Don't see that. Regarding the contract- I say what contract? There is no offer out there right now. What is in this contract offer you talk about, and please post it.

 

[Black Swan]

Wrong newbie. Name's not Randy. Not an East or West pilot either...not that you would know that since you're "brand new" here with your one post and all 🙄

I have to wonder why you think someone needs to get a life by asking for proof of totally unsubstantiated claims. Prove it. That's all I'm saying. Given your recoil, I have a feeling that you know how the vote on a decent contract would go. If I'm wrong...fine. PROVE IT.

Amazing that someone who isn't a pilot here, or says they are not- is so active a poster and so intertwined with the west viewpoint. Hard to take you seriously Metro to be honest. I wonder what we would hear from the westies if an East "friend" showed up, totally supporting the east position? Guaranteed, a totally different reception. Whatever, free country and board. We will just continue to take your view with a dumptruck load of salt to ward off the ALPA taste.

 

[Richard]

Reminder-- personal attacks/comments/insults aimed at specific posters are prohibited. I just removed a bunch of posts.

 

[oscarjazz]

The mighty Hog...counter to popular belief has never been struck from the rear by birds....we could however, according to tech orders, in a pinch replace a broken airspeed indicator with a calender. Ugliest and most feared attack aircraft flying....gotta love it

Why do hog drivers have to stop in Lajes when they deploy to Europe? To get a haircut.

 

[HogDriver]

Why do hog drivers have to stop in Lajes when they deploy to Europe? To get a haircut.

LOL...Good one. I always thought it was to allow the tanker crews dragging us across the pond a chance to finally speed up and make last call on the continent. Atleast our bullets fly fast.