US Pilots Labor Thread 4/7 to 4/14- ALL US Pilots Labor Issues Here

[nycbusdriver]

Wanna Bet?

(I wish there were an emoticon for the "raspberries.")

I found one...not a yellow faced one:

 

[Freighterguynow]

I HAD a job May 19th of 2005.

And that job has been eliminated in 2009 due to the housing bubble bursting in PHX and LAS. The hubs, routes and flying you had is being reduced because the AWA customer base is shrinking.

 

[Metroyet]

And that job has been eliminated in 2009 due to the housing bubble bursting in PHX and LAS. The hubs, routes and flying you had is being reduced because the AWA customer base is shrinking.

Yeah, it has nothing to do with the amount of West flying that has been replaced by the Cheaper Labor Force on the East.

 

[HPearlyretiree]

But...ignoring and attacking/sabotaging a legally elected union's apparently just fine......and I do recall it was the west who assigned the term "Righteous Position" to their efforts within all this mess...was it not?

No matter, as nothing said here will effect any changes in the circumstances, and I honestly do wish you and yours well.

A legally elected union that was formed to avoid the legally agreed to binding arbitration.

Both sides agreed to arbitration.

One side didn't like it and won't live up to its legal duties. That is the crux of the bisquit.

 

[ussnark]

I HAD a job May 19th of 2005. 1700+ east pilots who are currently working did not.

Actually, I think that hundreds of east pilots had flying jobs, for USAir, for which they did not sign away their US seniority, jobs, in part, sold by ALPA. I do not know all the timelines but it seems at least two programs existed, MDA and Jets for Jobs.

When these programs became an embarrassment for ALPA, efforts seem to have been made to revise their respective histories.

About comments alluding to "angry FOs". The vast majority of all east pilots (not just FOs) stayed during the lean years simply because they believed in DOH/LOS for determining seniority. After being told DOH rules (by ALPA) for twenty to thirty years, the shock of being told otherwise by an arbitrator who was allegedly fed false information (we know that at least some of it was false - thanks, ALPA) will take a long time to wear off, a generation, at least.

On a personal level, I hope the company realizes the opportunity they have right now and makes appropriate moves that would require callbacks.

 

[ussnark]

One side didn't like it and won't live up to its legal duties.

What legal duties?

I see negotiations for merger on-going. It is too bad they are taking place in the courts, among other venues, essentially polarizing the parties. Sabotaging a legally elected union, not paying dues and flame-baiting are creating positions that really should not be a part of the process.

So, what legal duties?

 

[N924PS]

And that job has been eliminated in 2009 due to the housing bubble bursting in PHX and LAS. The hubs, routes and flying you had is being reduced because the AWA customer base is shrinking.

That's only part of the story.

USAirways biggest competitor on LAS/PHX is , of course, Southwest.

Prior to the merger, HP enjoyed a cost per seat mile that allowed them to compete with and coexist in that marketplace. Just as PSA withered away due to the higher cost per seat mile USAir brought to the merger, the West is once again a casualty of the high merged cost.

And there is no revenue premium in sight to boot.

Someone please tell me how USAirways can still have the highest costs in the industry after 2 Chapter 11 BK's? Doug? Scott? Andy Nocella? Jump in any time....

 

[tazz]

I think if the judge "excludes any evidence", then this might well be a giant polarizing event for the east and there will be no mixed cockpit possible, except for a few of the slower east pilots.

Very mature. We rookies sure could learn a lot from you.

 

[tazz]

For me, it all comes down to an agreement east and west made. You either live up to that agreement or you don't.

Evil? A little dramatic don't you think?

Look at it this way, I have no plans to be the restitution you seek for an ill-fated career. We all have choices. And if the west loses then I would not sit around sulking that management did this, or other pilots, or other airlines. It's just circumstances... I will move on.

I think that is what frustrates you guys so much. The difference in our generations... You define yourself through your career. You are a pilot and you command respect. You live for that prestige. Me and those in my generation like, even love our job. But that is just it. It's a job. It does not define me. My ideas of this career and any prestige left long ago. Perpetuated by people such as yourself with your pompous attitude toward those who made different choices. You asked not long ago why anyone would have chosen AWA. Well let me tell you I chose AWA because of friends I had working here. It was all on the west coast. Sure pay and benefits were low but on the scale of important those things ranked rather low in comparison to culture and atmosphere. Both of which seemed to be more of what I wanted as an individual in contrast to AMR or UAL or DAL.

Exactly! Well said.

 

[nic4us]

And...here we have the point on which all our differences rest = DOH, within your own airline seemed completely reasonable. Why not? It was being universally applied to all within the same trade craft. HOWEVER...once that easily-seen-to-be fully-reasonable principal no longer suited the "Meee!" part of the equation...it..well...ummm....just what did happen? = It no longer served to better your own purposes, so you all chose to disregard it, and for NO other reason than that last. My belief's that it's every bit as reasonable when applied to any larger group within the same trade craft....period. I would now, and have always in the past, felt exactly that same way even when it completely ill suited any issues of my own gain, and in fact, disadvantaged me personally. Disregarding essential fundamentals and principals produces nothing but opportunism and strife. Any argument as to the strife part? Any/All out west can trumpet away about supposed "honor".."integrity"..etc..but that's the actual truth of things, at least as I see it.

EastUS,

I understand your point. I understand your conviction. I also understand that DOH is untenable in this merger and here is why.

In 2005 when the merger was happening I was flying with a 2002 hire. He was a very nice guy, who had been furloughed from USAir in 2000 or 2001, for the second or third time. He was initially hired at USAir literally weeks befor I was hired at AWA. However, in the course of our careers he had flown almost everywhere in that time as he had more years furloughed than actually employed. I on the other hand had all my years continuous employment, had upgraded and had more years as a captain than he did LOS. We were of similar age, he was younger than I.

Now you may believe he should be senior to me, but many would disagree with you. The arguement that he got here first, and therefore should be senior to me, although he had never attained a position even close to my seniority, disregarding all other circumstances, is an oversimplification almost irrelevant to what has transpired. Each case turns on its own merit. I understand this, the arbitrator understood this, the company understood this, a myriad of other merger parties understand this, and last, this very pilot understood this. He choose his Nic seniority over his USAir seniority believing the final and binding award was just that, final.

To argue that the West is the "Meee" generation, only seeking a gain at others expense is hypocritical to say the least. Our position supporting the Nic, is actually less self-serving than the East position on DOH.


Everyone else,

Where can I find a copy of the deposition transcripts, I want to read the Hemenway deposition.

 

[tazz]

urban dictionary

1. xxxx house lawyer

""An unqualified person who gives legal advice. Usually distorting the advice to favor a desired outcome.
You need to stop listening to that xxxx house lawyer or you're gonna get screwed!""

We on the west have been suggesting the same for you in relation to Seeham. He appears to be the true xxxxhouse lawyer.

 

[tazz]

And...here we have the point on which all our differences rest = DOH, within your own airline seemed completely reasonable. Why not? It was being universally applied to all within the same trade craft. HOWEVER...once that easily-seen-to-be fully-reasonable principal no longer suited the "Meee!" part of the equation...it..well...ummm....just what did happen? = It no longer served to better your own purposes, so you all chose to disregard it, and for NO other reason than that last. My belief's that it's every bit as reasonable when applied to any larger group within the same trade craft....period. I would now, and have always in the past, felt exactly that same way even when it completely ill suited any issues of my own gain, and in fact, disadvantaged me personally. Disregarding essential fundamentals and principals produces nothing but opportunism and strife. Any argument as to the strife part? Any/All out west can trumpet away about supposed "honor".."integrity"..etc..but that's the actual truth of things, at least as I see it.

Still saying so little with so many words. You still don't understand the concept of merging either. Your comments are sheer projection because it really is about you.

 

[tazz]

About comments alluding to "angry FOs". The vast majority of all east pilots (not just FOs) stayed during the lean years simply because they believed in DOH/LOS for determining seniority. After being told DOH rules (by ALPA) for twenty to thirty years, the shock of being told otherwise by an arbitrator who was allegedly fed false information (we know that at least some of it was false - thanks, ALPA) will take a long time to wear off, a generation, at least.

The vast majority of east pilots stayed during the lean years because they had nowhere better to go. Alpa never told anyone that DOH rules. If that were true their merger policy would have been DOH, like the flight attendants', but it remained the policy of which we used and you refuted when you didn't get your way.

Four years after this debacle alpa still has not changed the merger policy to DOH. Why is that? Legislation has been passed which parallels the alpa merger policy. Why is that? The NWA/DL seniority merge was akin to alpa merger policy. Why is that?

You know, guys, when you finally stop beating your heads against a brick wall you will find it feels pretty good.

 

[wopr21]

A legally elected union that was formed to avoid the legally agreed to binding arbitration.

Both sides agreed to arbitration.

One side didn't like it and won't live up to its legal duties. That is the crux of the bisquit.

Untrue.. there are many reasons for getting rid of Alpa. We all have our reasons. The nic lottery ticket is probably the final straw that broke the camels back.

Yes arbitration was agreed upon but the outcome did not follow windfall policy. You forgot that part.

wopr

 

[wopr21]

The vast majority of east pilots stayed during the lean years because they had nowhere better to go. Alpa never told anyone that DOH rules. If that were true their merger policy would have been DOH, like the flight attendants', but it remained the policy of which we used and you refuted when you didn't get your way.

Four years after this debacle alpa still has not changed the merger policy to DOH. Why is that? Legislation has been passed which parallels the alpa merger policy. Why is that? The NWA/DL seniority merge was akin to alpa merger policy. Why is that?

You know, guys, when you finally stop beating your heads against a brick wall you will find it feels pretty good.

The crux of the problem is that with any other method for integration than DOH you have the problems we have today. Just one example is the government today. It is so complex we can't recover. The constitution is like DOH. It is simple ,easy to understand, and is the foundation in which we must return. The pilots who voted for a fresh start understood that. We are standing up for what is right in this industry.

DOH is in our Constitution

wopr