US Pilots Labor Thread 4/7 to 4/14- ALL US Pilots Labor Issues Here

[hp_fa]

I don't have access to serious legal treatises and full opinions at the moment, but I will stand with my response for now that the Court could issue a provisional remedy at any time it deems proper during or after the trial and then modify that injunction at a later date.

 

[ussnark]

That sir is a very good question.

Because of the nature of this being an injunctive case I **believe** that if he feels the evidence warrants he can do so. If it is proven that the injuction should issue the judge then steps in and makes whatever orders he feels necessary to restore the aggrieved party to where it belongs. That said, he doesn't need to do everything it once, he could issue a temporary injunction while considering the scope of the permanent injunction, which could be after more court proceedings.

Tell you what, I will try to go do a bit more research on your excellent question.

I blush, and thank you for your input.

IANAL and my experiences with courts is limited to corporate law, but, it seems to me most any judge would be reluctant to get involved in negotiating a labor agreement. My experiences include mediation, something considered quite different between the east and west coasts.

 

[EastUS]

Surely you understand there is evidence that is pertinent and evidence that is not.

Of course, and I'm entirely certain that all attempts to suppress by the west are purely in the interest of achieving speedy "justice".

I submit that the actual truth of the west's thinking here's represented by metroyet's observation = "The "it's not fair" argument will be shut out. Sorry." This is further supported by the west's request = "1."USAPA is precluded from offering any evidence, testimony or argument that Nicolau Arbitration was unfair, unreasonable or contrary to ALPA merger policy". Honestly now; If you all didn't fully realize what a ridiculous windfall the Nic would represent...you would, none of you nor your lawyers, have any interest in any such suppression...now would you?

What's interesting to me's how adamant west posters are about that..as if having any juror consider such nonsense as fairness...well..might ruin their day.

Heaven forbid anyone fretting themselves over such nonsense as what anyone might actually think about fairness, when advancing a properly "Righteous Position" No personal offence meant...but, your side fully cracks me up, in that I've seldom in life seen such utter and even comical levels of hypocrisy in action.

We'd all do well to stock up fully on good popcorn for the coming circus

You earlier asked what I'd say if the courtroom insanity goes the west's way. It would not surprise me in any way to see victory for either. NOTHING surprises me anymore from our marvelous legal system...period. Should the west win? = I'd chalk it up to a minor triumph of what I perceive to be evil, realize that it instantly changes absolutely nothing, and go about my day's business. Should the union prove triumphant? = I'd still figure that nothing's immediately changed..and do pretty much the same drill...save for the "evil" part, which I realize is a matter of greatly differing perspective here.

 

[Tiger 1050]

Of course, and I'm entirely certain that all attempts to suppress by the west are purely in the interest of achieving speedy "justice".

I submit that the actual truth of the west's thinking here's represented by metroyet's observation = "The "it's not fair" argument will be shut out. Sorry." This is further supported by the west's request = "1."USAPA is precluded from offering any evidence, testimony or argument that Nicolau Arbitration was unfair, unreasonable or contrary to ALPA merger policy". Honestly now; If you all didn't fully realize what a ridiculous windfall the Nic would represent...you would, none of you nor your lawyers, have any interest in any such suppression...now would you?

What's interesting to me's how adamant west posters are about that..as if having any juror consider such nonsense as fairness...well..might ruin their day.

Heaven forbid anyone fretting themselves over such nonsense as what anyone might actually think about fairness, when advancing a properly "Righteous Position" No personal offence meant...but, your side fully cracks me up, in that I've seldom in life seen such utter and even comical levels of hypocrisy in action.

We'd all do well to stock up fully on good popcorn for the coming circus

You earlier asked what I'd say if the courtroom insanity goes the west's way. It would not surprise me in any way to see victory for either. NOTHING surprises me anymore from our marvelous legal system...period. Should the west win? = I'd chalk it up to a minor triumph of what I perceive to be evil, realize that it instantly changes absolutely nothing, and go about my day's business. Should the union prove triumphant? = I'd still figure that nothing's immediately changed..and do pretty much the same drill...save for the "evil" part, which I realize is a matter of greatly differing perspective here.

For me, it all comes down to an agreement east and west made. You either live up to that agreement or you don't.

Evil? A little dramatic don't you think?

Look at it this way, I have no plans to be the restitution you seek for an ill-fated career. We all have choices. And if the west loses then I would not sit around sulking that management did this, or other pilots, or other airlines. It's just circumstances... I will move on.

I think that is what frustrates you guys so much. The difference in our generations... You define yourself through your career. You are a pilot and you command respect. You live for that prestige. Me and those in my generation like, even love our job. But that is just it. It's a job. It does not define me. My ideas of this career and any prestige left long ago. Perpetuated by people such as yourself with your pompous attitude toward those who made different choices. You asked not long ago why anyone would have chosen AWA. Well let me tell you I chose AWA because of friends I had working here. It was all on the west coast. Sure pay and benefits were low but on the scale of important those things ranked rather low in comparison to culture and atmosphere. Both of which seemed to be more of what I wanted as an individual in contrast to AMR or UAL or DAL.

 

[hp_fa]

There has been a generational change in the pilots career and how they are viewed by the public. I think that is part of the unhappiness of older pilots, regardless of airline, union or any other qualifier. They joined after growing up in the 50's-70's when pilots were well respected and revered. Let's face it, the public's view has changed, the industry has changed and their view of their career has changed. The industry, from their standpoint, is falling apart before their eyes and they are unhappy about it.

The younger folks were raised in a different atmosphere and have different criteria to judge themselves by within the population.

I tend to think that I, to some degree or another, understand all points of view regarding this issue.

 

[EastUS]

For me, it all comes down to an agreement east and west made. You either live up to that agreement or you don't.

Evil? A little dramatic don't you think?

Look at it this way, I have no plans to be the restitution you seek for an ill-fated career.

I think that is what frustrates you guys so much. The difference in our generations... You define yourself through your career. You are a pilot and you command respect. You live for that prestige.

1) That, to me, seems an inadequate attempt at evasive mauevering, dodging around the west's "Arrrgh!!...don't allow those jurors to even consider fairness!!" behavior, and fully supports my earlier observations.

2) Nope, as that's how I honestly see this mess.

3) "Ill-fated"? Heck..I've had a great time for the most part, and my thinking's not based on personal gain or loss, whichever way it all goes.

4) Umm = "You live for that prestige."??? You've truly just gotta' be kidding here!! I'm reluctant to, nowadays, even admit to that part of my life (much less the airline involved) in general conversation. That's a rather interesting assumption in any case, in that, in any issues of self-definition of being a "Pilot"...airliners don't even really enter into my little ego's personal inner sanctum That the profession was once a properly proud endeavor's quite true, but; I dare say that few who've "been around much" yet feel any need to define themselves by it..and it's hardly the centerpiece of my life, to say the least. I like the view and the people..and it's done after that point.

5) "The difference in our generations..." Is that I've never felt myself "entitled" to usurp seniority from anyone that's actually senior, has done more and seen more. Your's clearly is without the least principals in that arena...beyond "What's in everything for MEEEE!!!?"

 

[EastUS]

The industry, from their standpoint, is falling apart before their eyes and they are unhappy about it.

In my observation; that much is certain. I do my best to suggest, whenever talking with an intelligent and capable youngster who's evidently infected with the "Sky Virus", that they should seek out a military flying position, Guard or Reserves/etc, and/or establish an income stream sufficent to just buy "toy" planes to fly around. Never will I suggest to any that they pursue commercial aviation....period. It used to be a great lifestyle, but any youngster who's truly sharp can find far better things to do than involve themselves in the mess it's become. The future trends are evident =build continually "smarter" aircraft..and be able to place continually less qualified people into them...and pay those people accordingly.

 

[Tiger 1050]

1) That, to me, seems an inadequate attempt at evasive mauevering, dodging around the west's "Arrrgh!!...don't allow those jurors to even consider fairness!!" behavior, and fully supports my earlier observations.

My answer does not get any more simple. Fulfill your obligations.

2) Nope, as that's how I honestly see this mess.

I am honestly surprised! Evil? Really? That says a lot.

3) "Ill-fated"? Heck..I've had a great time for the most part, and my thinking's not based on personal gain or loss, whichever way it all goes.

So why the 3000+ posts on this very subject? Honestly your actions speak to the contrary.

4) Umm = "You live for that prestige."??? You've truly just gotta' be kidding here!! I'm reluctant to, nowadays, even admit to that part of my life (much less the airline involved) in general conversation. That's a rather interesting assumption in any case, in that, in any issues of self-definition of being a "Pilot"...airliners don't even really enter into my little ego's personal inner sanctum That the profession was once a properly proud endeavor's quite true, but; I dare say that few who've "been around much" yet feel any need to define themselves by it..and it's hardly the centerpiece of my life, to say the least.

Exactly! You just illustrated my point! It's screaming to get out of you! You need that recognition. If you didn't you would not have written an entire paragraph explaining how it never enters your mind...

5) "The difference in our generations..." Is that I've never felt myself "entitled" to usurp seniority from anyone that's actually senior, has done more and seen more. Your's clearly is without the least principals in that arena...beyond "What's in everything for MEEEE!!!?"

And here we find the perception problem. Maybe we should rearrange the list by DOB! Because let's face it the oldest has done more and seen more than anyone else, right? I am not new to US Airways! I am not a new hire attempting to gain seniority jumping over the backs of my fellow pilots! WE MERGED!!! WE MERGED our seniority list. I was in the 78th percentile one day before Nic ruled. I am 80th percentile one day after he ruled. I have gained nothing. Well except for a furlough. But I won't go there...

 

[Megasnoop]

In theory. At a fundamental level the TA is nothing more than a contract, between 4 parties initially (US, HP, East MEC, & West MEC) and between 2 parties now (US & USAPA). A judge can certainly modify or void a contract.

Jim

How about at a "higher level?" Jim, you have no expertise in any of this and no vested interest anymore, other than waving the old ALPA flag.

We are a nation which relies on the sanctity of contracts. When we think a contact is being violated, we sue. West thinks the implied (or actual) Nic contract was violated, so they sued. A court case will decide and Ill live with the results, after the inevitable appeal by the losing side. Thats business. I dont need all the teeth gnarling and vemon spewing out on this chat board. Its unproductive playground nastiness that hurts us all. At least those of us still working.

Injunctive relief is used to stop ongoing screwings. No screwings=no injunctive relief. I wish someone out west would clearly identify how theyre getting screwed right now. Wake wont take the chance of running afoul of the 9th Circuit appeals court. As "Bush" as he may be, any decision he makes will be up against a far left-wing appeals court. IF Wake grants some kind of injunctive relief, he will do so knowing the 9th Circuit will be looking over his shoulder. He wll be cautious.

Agreed, very hard to believe. I would estimate $500k per two months during this trial.
Should we start an over under?

Total legal costs for usapa filed in the LM-2. $1.9 million.

Any other estimates? Bragging rights at stake.

You wont even be close, but you have to wait until the 2009 LM-2 report to know for sure. By then, no one will care. At least your not in the hp-fa $5M camp. Since inception, first year USAPA attorney fees <$188K. Our cost for the RICO <$50K through FY 2008. Your side was $5K each? Works out to $90K in dog dollars. RGs personal attorney pocketed some big bucks. Wonder if he got an ID-90 from his friend while the other 17 paid full price. So, if we run $5M, based on the RICO, youll run $9M. No matter what the DFR or RICO costs, you guys are paying 1/3 of it. Thanks.

We (East) were offered a 17% pay raise as a company "opener" two years ago.

The majority of the East pilot group thinks more important to keep the two pilot groups separate as a means to block the Nicolau Award.

You should know, Jake, since your crowd was in office and didnt have the guts to turn that "offer" into a TA and present it for a vote. That was when ALPA was still CBA. That was when you were suing the West. That was when YOU were doing everything you could to fight and delay the NIC. And now you blame the East rank and file? Sorry, Jake, not buying it. YOUR MEC rejected it.

But just to set the record straight, the 17% offer? How do you know? Oh, I forgot, you were still part of the ALPA problem back then, not the USAPA solution. But based on the companys current stonewalling and nitpicking at the table, that 17% that YOU rejected isnt even on the radar screen right now. Dont cry us a river 2 years later.

USAPA is negotiating in good faith. Its the company that is dragging this out. Theyll keep dragging until under the gun of Section 6.

Jake, ALPA lost. Why? Their own unmanageable and conflicted merger policy finally caught up with them. Theyll have their chance to get back in next year. Use your energy to get them back if you really want them. Stop trying to r your own mistakes.

Senor Snoop

 

[EastUS]

My answer does not get any more simple. Fulfill your obligations.

Exactly! You just illustrated my point! It's screaming to get out of you! You need that recognition. If you didn't you would not have written an entire paragraph explaining how it never enters your mind...

1) My obligations are to oppose that which I believe to be completely wrong...and yes = evil in nature....period.

2) Read closer = You won't find any personal chest thumping about airline flying contained in anything I said

As for: "And here we find the perception problem. Maybe we should rearrange the list by DOB! Because let's face it the oldest has done more and seen more than anyone else, right?" Well...all I'll note is that that's exactly how it's been done within any AWA newhire class...who were then accorded further seniority integration by that class's given DOH...now isn't it? So, methinks it's not a "perception problem"...but purely a selfish BS problem

 

[cleardirect]

Well yes obviously if Nic was fair and equitable there wouldn't be a problem. The question remaining is how not if the problem gets solved.

The West lawyers have already conceded that USAPA's actions were not arbitrary. They are trying desperately to exclude the evidence as to why USAPA took action. They don't want the jury to hear USAPA prove their actions were not arbitrary because that means the Nic list itself goes on trial. Read the 4/7 court documents....very interesting.

underpants

Underpants,

I need an explanation.

In your words you said that the west is desperately trying to keep out evidence.

The plaintiffs filed 9 items they request to exclude. You call this desperate.

Usapa filed 33 items they want excluded. What would you call that?

Hysterical, panic, terror?

 

[BoeingBoy]

How about at a "higher level?" Jim, you have no expertise in any of this and no vested interest anymore, other than waving the old ALPA flag.

Not sure what you mean by a "higher leverl" but the TA is more complicated than many contracts, i.e. it covers a number of things from furlough to minimum fleet to scope to etc. while many/most contracts deal with one subject.

I dont need all the teeth gnarling and vemon spewing out on this chat board. Its unproductive playground nastiness that hurts us all. At least those of us still working.

Yet here you are still participating...

Since inception, first year USAPA attorney fees <$188K. Our cost for the RICO <$50K through FY 2008.

I see you're still clinging to fantasy that 2 months of legal expenditures somehow covers all legal bills for the suits.

Jim

 

[cleardirect]

HP-FA

Very nice analysis of the motions in limine. I agree 33 is excessive. If I read it right. USAPA is trying to exclude any evidence pre-certification, post certification. All exhibits filed by the plantiffs. Basiscally anything and everything.

 

[Tiger 1050]

As for: "And here we find the perception problem. Maybe we should rearrange the list by DOB! Because let's face it the oldest has done more and seen more than anyone else, right?" Well...all I'll note is that that's exactly how it's been done within any AWA newhire class...who were then accorded further seniority integration by that class's given DOH...now isn't it? So, methinks it's not a "perception problem"...but purely a selfish BS problem

I am disappointed that you did not respond to to my point regarding MERGING the seniority lists. I am more than happy to be arranged by DOH within MY original airline. But when it comes to MERGING seniority list I refuse to be your whipping boy. If you have issues with that then find a therapist who pretends to give a crap!!!

 

[hp_fa]

HP-FA

Very nice analysis of the motions in limine. I agree 33 is excessive. If I read it right. USAPA is trying to exclude any evidence pre-certification, post certification. All exhibits filed by the plantiffs. Basiscally anything and everything.

Yes they are. They are obviously unhappy that Judge Wake determined that the issue set for trial has been determined to be ripe for litigation. USAPA had vigorously argued both that the matter was already time-barred and that it hadn't yet reached a stage where litigation was appropriate. Again, they were setting a record for appeal, but it is really difficult to get a favorable ruling when you argue both arguments and they run counter to one another.

The other thing that is going on is both parties are laying the foundation for the record concerning possible appeals. That is standard in all litigations. They are looking for trial court errors in evidence presented, which is appealable. Whether a party appeals is a decision to be made later, however you always try and preserve the record.