US Pilots labor thread 4/17-

[john john]

Are there any indications that he plans to do that?

COST NEUTRAL

 

[Schultz]

COST NEUTRAL

That pig is not going to fly this time.

 

[RSVP767]

Could you point to any airline in the world that has a 25 or 35 year pay scale?

US Airways east is an aberration in the airline industry. While it sounds like a good idea. Paying the old guys now while screwing the young guys with a promise of more when you get there does not work.

Once again all you are concerned about is now and getting yours. In order to make that work the money has to be pushed very deep into the seniority scale. Why would anyone want to come to work for US Airways as a new hire to replace an old guy starting at $40 per hour. Then have to wait 15 years before making some decent money?

There is a reason why pay scales top at 12 -15 years.

Could you please point to any other airline in the world that has a 17 year differential between guys one number apart on their seniority list. Or, Captains with 10 or 12 years less LOS than the F/O's on their list. No, didn't think so. As the West loves to point out, this is a whole new airline right. Well then, it may be time for a whole new way of thinking.

The NIC is the aberration. But you're fine with screwing the old guys now while locking them out of the higher paying Captian positions with no promise of ever capturing such before they retire. You realize Monda has 5.5 years to go while ODELL has 26.5 to go, and when ODELL retires only 209 of the original HP/US pilots will be around.

Believe me, I'm well aware that there are no promises in this industry. You never know what lurks around the corner that will steal your pay, benefits, growth, pension, etc. (did I forget anything......oh yeah, senoirity). We're all just one economic downturn, catastrophic event, outsource, merger, errant arbitration, etc., away from having to adjust course once again. So yes, you're damn right I'm concerned about getting mine now, AFTER 20+ YEARS and watching all the promises of a great career get pulled out from under me.

The reason payscales top out at 12 - 15 years is because that's the way they have historically been negotiated. Just like Section 22. Most airlines have negotiated with their pilot's CBA to established seniority based on DOH. Things change. I'll grant you however, as some posters have pointed out, a restructuring of the payscales in such a fashion would likely be viewed as a violation of judge Wakes orders. This is unfortunate because without some mitigating effects you will not see the NIC for some time.

BTW, new hires do start out near $40/hr at LCC (not that we are hiring). Oh, and why would anyone want to go to work for America West and wait 15 years to make some decent money when they could make more elsewhere?

 

[Flippin43]

Could you please point to any other airline in the world that has a 17 year differential between guys one number apart on their seniority list. Or, Captains with 10 or 12 years less LOS than the F/O's on their list. No, didn't think so. As the West loves to point out, this is a whole new airline right. Well then, it may be time for a whole new way of thinking.

The NIC is the aberration. But you're fine with screwing the old guys now while locking them out of the higher paying Captian positions with no promise of ever capturing such before they retire. You realize Monda has 5.5 years to go while ODELL has 26.5 to go, and when ODELL retires only 209 of the original HP/US pilots will be around.

Believe me, I'm well aware that there are no promises in this industry. You never know what lurks around the corner that will steal your pay, benefits, growth, pension, etc. (did I forget anything......oh yeah, senoirity). We're all just one economic downturn, catastrophic event, outsource, merger, errant arbitration, etc., away from having to adjust course once again. So yes, you're damn right I'm concerned about getting mine now, AFTER 20+ YEARS and watching all the promises of a great career get pulled out from under me.

The reason payscales top out at 12 - 15 years is because that's the way they have historically been negotiated. Just like Section 22. Most airlines have negotiated with their pilot's CBA to established seniority based on DOH. Things change. I'll grant you however, as some posters have pointed out, a restructuring of the payscales in such a fashion would likely be viewed as a violation of judge Wakes orders. This is unfortunate because without some mitigating effects you will not see the NIC for some time.

BTW, new hires do start out near $40/hr at LCC (not that we are hiring). Oh, and why would anyone want to go to work for America West and wait 15 years to make some decent money when they could make more elsewhere?

767,

Why would anyone with 18 years in, after finding themself on the BOTTOM of the seniority list AGAIN after being there 18 years before (real progress to be sure) stay at that carrier? When decent money could be made elsewhere!

Certainly you can see the difference between 15 years to a payoff and 18 years to the same place you were 18 years before.

Flip

 

[luvn737s]

Could you please point to any other airline in the world that has a 17 year differential between guys one number apart on their seniority list. Or, Captains with 10 or 12 years less LOS than the F/O's on their list. No, didn't think so. As the West loves to point out, this is a whole new airline right. Well then, it may be time for a whole new way of thinking.

You have to get past the mindset that west pilots are being placed on the east list. It is a new list for a new airline.

I suppose you could negotiate your concept, but would the majority of the pilots be willing to make the MAJOR concessions necessary for such a scheme to be agreed to? There are compromises to be made on both sides for anything to move forward. Your LOS pay scheme would be so expensive that every other section would have to be gutted (including pay rates) to pay for it. Don't care for the idea of paying for it? USAPA will never have the unity necessary to carry off a strike in support of such a scheme (yeah, strike to get a Mesa contract with LOS pay basis. I can just hear the bullhorn now, "What do we want?" "$80/hr for captains" "When do we want it?" " NOW!!").

No, the die has been cast due to stubborn east negotiators at the outset. I actually feel very sorry that no one in the east leadership was willing to tell the pilots what the consequences of their stubbornness could be. Nicolau will be the list you see when USAPA puts out a contract for ratification.

When will the membership of USAPA begin a NO SUNSHINE program demanding that the leadership quit trying to delude the pilots into believing that the west will be spun off, or that there will be some 3-way seniority integration with UAL, or that DOH isn't DOA. Members should demand that the sunshine pump be turned off and that Cleary and Co. level with the pilots. Be frank and tell them that Nicolau is the list. Tell the pilots that USAPA will abandon the counterproductive civil war strategy that has yet to produce any positive results.

FEATHER THE PROPAGANDA

 

[cleardirect]

Could you please point to any other airline in the world that has a 17 year differential between guys one number apart on their seniority list. Or, Captains with 10 or 12 years less LOS than the F/O's on their list. No, didn't think so. As the West loves to point out, this is a whole new airline right. Well then, it may be time for a whole new way of thinking.

No because there is no other airline that had the poor career that Us Air had. Why are there 10 year west captains and 20 years east F/O’s? Is there another airline that had 17 year furloughs?

The NIC is the aberration. But you're fine with screwing the old guys now while locking them out of the higher paying Captian positions with no promise of ever capturing such before they retire. You realize Monda has 5.5 years to go while ODELL has 26.5 to go, and when ODELL retires only 209 of the original HP/US pilots will be around.

It is not the Nicolau that is an aberration. It is the career of the east pilots that are the abnormal. I have asked before but everyone refuses to answer the question. How many east pilots would not have upgraded without the merger? If US Air had stayed in business and gotten DOH how many would not have upgraded? Now give us a number exactly how many east F/O can not upgrade because of the Nicolau? Until anyone can give us those numbers it is just whining about things without evidence, pure speculation.

Believe me, I'm well aware that there are no promises in this industry. You never know what lurks around the corner that will steal your pay, benefits, growth, pension, etc. (did I forget anything......oh yeah, senoirity). We're all just one economic downturn, catastrophic event, outsource, merger, errant arbitration, etc., away from having to adjust course once again. So yes, you're damn right I'm concerned about getting mine now, AFTER 20+ YEARS and watching all the promises of a great career get pulled out from under me.

After 20 years of watching your career tank. Maybe you should have considered finding another airline that was not an aberration of the industry. Just who is responsible for your career? Would it be you or the company?

BTW, new hires do start out near $40/hr at LCC (not that we are hiring). Oh, and why would anyone want to go to work for America West and wait 15 years to make some decent money when they could make more elsewhere?

AWA does not exist any more. But we were hiring right up to the date of the merger. We did not have to wait 15 years, we were upgrading in about 7 years. What was the upgrade at AAA prior to the merger? At AWA we did not have a $40.00 starting pay rate.

 

[Pi brat]

We did not have to wait 15 years, we were upgrading in about 7 years. What was the upgrade at AAA prior to the merger? At AWA we did not have a $40.00 starting pay rate.

When I was hired at PI upgrade was running about 2 1/2 years. Things change. Are there any west pilots that haven't upgraded in 7 years or less?

 

[Metroyet]

Being that this is USAPA's 2 year Anniversary, shouldn't the executive leadership issue a communique highlighting all of their accomplishments in those years? How about a side by side comparison between campaign promises and Actual results.

I wonder Why USAPA is so conspicuously silent on the matter? Doesn't this anniversary just underscore the huge Triumph?

 

[BoeingBoy]

When I was hired at PI upgrade was running about 2 1/2 years.

Then the merger happened and it went from great to awful in about 18 months.

Jim

 

[Pi brat]

When I was hired at PI upgrade was running about 2 1/2 years.

Then the merger happened and it went from great to awful in about 18 months.

Jim

Yep. And since 2005 no 7 year west upgrades.

 

[End of USAPA]

Yep. And since 2005 no 7 year west upgrades.

Yep, theres been a lot of theft going on hasnt there???

 

[Pi brat]

Yep, theres been a lot of theft going on hasnt there???

Theft. You know that's funny. Read your transition agreement, you know the one your reps brought you.

 

[nic4us]

Theft. You know that's funny. Read your transition agreement, you know the one your reps brought you.

Crazy thing that TA. There was supposed to be a third list, yet there is not. Growth flying was to be shared, yet it was not. Pilot operational integration was to occur within 12 months of cancelation of contract negotiations, yet it did not.

So if the reps bring us a contract, but the east renegs on their side of the deal, it is our reps fault?

 

[Pi brat]

So if the reps bring us a contract, but the east renegs on their side of the deal, it is our reps fault?

You lost me there. What do you mean by east renegs? Votes it down?

If the Nic award stapled the west pilots to the bottom of the list and we had not reached a joint contract by now would it still be "stealing"?

 

[cactusboy53]

You lost me there. What do you mean by east reneges? Votes it down?

If the Nic award stapled the west pilots to the bottom of the list and we had not reached a joint contract by now would it still be "stealing"?

It is probably more appropriate to say that the east negotiating team walked away from a nearly completed tentative agreement vs. the term "renege". It was missing a pay proposal and a few other details. But compared to where we are now, leaps and bounds closer. This is one of the reasons why Prater put the PHL reps in the corner for a time out. Too little, too late.

If the Nic was a staple job for the west, I doubt there would be a "USAPA". East would just tell us that DOH is the gold standard and suck it up (Oh wait, they still say that...except the "suck it up" part).

Oh never mind.......Proverbs 9:7-8. I guess well see you in court.....AGAIN.