US Pilots labor thread 4/17-

[flybynite]

Okay....I have a question.

I'm not sure how to put this....Is it possible that you could set up your pay scale based on years of service only?

Not equipment...just years of service?

Maybe you need to rethink this....

 

[Metroyet]

Okay....I have a question.

I'm not sure how to put this....Is it possible that you could set up your pay scale based on years of service only?

Not equipment...just years of service?

Maybe you need to rethink this....

No. Read Definition of Seniority and what it means in the context of a CBA. Believe me, the fake union known as USAPA has left no stone unturned trying to determine how they can destroy West careers, leach the benefits for East pilots only, and yet still collect the ALPA rate dues from everybody under threat of termination, (some union ) Even Seham hasn't figured out what you're suggesting.

 

[A320 Driver]

Says who?


When Parker lays the Delta contract on the table, the east pilots will trip over themselves trying to vote it onto property.

Impediment? Please. All it takes is a little cash and that "impediment" will disappear overnight.

Give me a hit off off THAT dude!
I wouldn't bet the change in my pocket that Parker would put ANYTHING on the table that isn't as a whole, concessionary. He and his management team are enjoying the cost savings provided by LOA93 and will feed at that trough as long as they can. It is EASY for management to say this or that. It is completely different to get their name on the dotted line. Right now, USAPA is providing a convenient excuse to maintain the staus quo. Our management is like Congress. They do NOTHING that doesn't benefit them personally.

Driver B)

 

[goneflyin]

When Parker lays the Delta contract on the table, the east pilots will trip over themselves trying to vote it onto property.

Are there any indications that he plans to do that?

 

[nic4us]

Okay....I have a question.

I'm not sure how to put this....Is it possible that you could set up your pay scale based on years of service only?

Not equipment...just years of service?

Maybe you need to rethink this....

This idea has been floated by a handful of posters. There may be some merit in this being part of a solution, however it will not be a cure all.

The West already operates on a single payscale for all aircraft types flown. We just have 2 scales, captain and first officer. We do have e190 and a330 scales, but of course they are not currently used, and are LOA adjustments to our original contract. So the West is not necessarily averse to a simplified pay structure.

However, while I would guess most may agree that a 25 year f/o making the same money as a 10 year capt is a reasonable formula, a 25 year f/o making more than a 23 year capt just will not hold water amongst the pilot group or the company.

While there is a disparity between east and West LOS, the most junior West captains have 13 years and the majority of West f/o's have over 10. Most West capts have over 20 years so there really is not a lot of room to work here.

 

[RSVP767]

This idea has been floated by a handful of posters. There may be some merit in this being part of a solution, however it will not be a cure all.

The West already operates on a single payscale for all aircraft types flown. We just have 2 scales, captain and first officer. We do have e190 and a330 scales, but of course they are not currently used, and are LOA adjustments to our original contract. So the West is not necessarily averse to a simplified pay structure.

However, while I would guess most may agree that a 25 year f/o making the same money as a 10 year capt is a reasonable formula, a 25 year f/o making more than a 23 year capt just will not hold water amongst the pilot group or the company.

While there is a disparity between east and West LOS, the most junior West captains have 13 years and the majority of West f/o's have over 10. Most West capts have over 20 years so there really is not a lot of room to work here.

Simple graduated LOS payscale. Start with $40/hr first year, graduated to $200/hr at 35 years (Top-Of-Scale). Add Captain Premium pay for Captains. Say $20/hr for Captains with 5 to 14 years LOS, $30/hr for 15 thru 19 years LOS, $40/hr for 20 thru 24 years LOS, $50/hr for 25 years or more. Also add $10/hr Widebody premium for both seats.

 

[nic4us]

Simple graduated LOS payscale. Start with $40/hr first year, graduated to $200/hr at 35 years (Top-Of-Scale). Add Captain Premium pay for Captains. Say $20/hr for Captains with 5 to 14 years LOS, $30/hr for 15 thru 19 years LOS, $40/hr for 20 thru 24 years LOS, $50/hr for 25 years or more. Also add $10/hr Widebody premium for both seats.

You convinced me, now get everyone else on board, and it is problem solved.

 

[Freebird]

Simple graduated LOS payscale. Start with $40/hr first year, graduated to $200/hr at 35 years (Top-Of-Scale). Add Captain Premium pay for Captains. Say $20/hr for Captains with 5 to 14 years LOS, $30/hr for 15 thru 19 years LOS, $40/hr for 20 thru 24 years LOS, $50/hr for 25 years or more. Also add $10/hr Widebody premium for both seats.

We cant do any of that until Usapa stops holding ALL US Airways pilots hostage with the lawsuits.....

 

[Freebird]

Are there any indications that he plans to do that?

Call Cleary and ask him. If Parker wants this thing to work, he'll have to pony up and get this moving forward with a few carrots.

 

[cleardirect]

Simple graduated LOS payscale. Start with $40/hr first year, graduated to $200/hr at 35 years (Top-Of-Scale). Add Captain Premium pay for Captains. Say $20/hr for Captains with 5 to 14 years LOS, $30/hr for 15 thru 19 years LOS, $40/hr for 20 thru 24 years LOS, $50/hr for 25 years or more. Also add $10/hr Widebody premium for both seats.

Could you point to any airline in the world that has a 25 or 35 year pay scale?

US Airways east is an aberration in the airline industry. While it sounds like a good idea. Paying the old guys now while screwing the young guys with a promise of more when you get there does not work.

Once again all you are concerned about is now and getting yours. In order to make that work the money has to be pushed very deep into the seniority scale. Why would anyone want to come to work for US Airways as a new hire to replace an old guy starting at $40 per hour. Then have to wait 15 years before making some decent money?

There is a reason why pay scales top at 12 -15 years.

 

[HPDriver]

Are there any indications that he plans to do that?

Yes.

That fact that Cleary ran home and filed and request to the 9th means Parker has put something on the table that even Cleary knows he will be unable to keep the pilot group from voting onto property.

Cleary has always been a non-issue with the company. This proves it even more.

 

[BoeingBoy]

Okay....I have a question.

I'm not sure how to put this....Is it possible that you could set up your pay scale based on years of service only?

To pay by years of service only, you would have East E190 F/O's making more than some West 757 captains. Anything that resulted in that could be argued to be a violation of the injunction and a DFR violation.

The broader version of this was floated by some East posters before - let the Nic be the seniority list but make everything currently seniority related instead be longevity related. Equip/schedule bidding, vacation bidding, pay, etc all based on longevity instead of seniority. It is just a way to say that the Nic is the seniority list but in reality ignore the Nic. The injunction prevents that.

Jim

 

[cleardirect]

To pay by years of service only, you would have East E190 F/O's making more than some West 757 captains. Anything that resulted in that could be argued to be a violation of the injunction and a DFR violation.

The broader version of this was floated by some East posters before - let the Nic be the seniority list but make everything currently seniority related instead be longevity related. Equip/schedule bidding, vacation bidding, pay, etc all based on longevity instead of seniority. It is just a way to say that the Nic is the seniority list but in reality ignore the Nic. The injunction prevents that.

Jim

You are absolutely correct.

If Nicolau did not allow it or grant it then it can not be negotiated. Like fences.

From the injunction

B. Make all reasonable efforts to support and defend the seniority rights provided
by or arising from the Nicolau Award in negotiations with US Airways; and

Nicolau did not set this up to be based on LOS he set it up to be based on system seniority.

 

[Flippin43]

veritasaequitas, on 17 April 2010 - 01:19 PM, said:

"Scott Kirby, President of US Airways, speaking to a
group of its pilots in Phoenix on May 27, 2009, commented directly on this appeal.
The airline’s President noted that the pilot negotiating process “can’t finish until
you get all the way through the appeal” and that it was “unlikely” that any
agreement could be reached or if reached would not likely get ratified. (Ex. D, at ¶"

Ole Scotty may feel very differently about this now than he did a year ago. Anyway, he was only saying what would enable management to keep the pilots divided as long as possible to save tons of money. Now, this divide is an impediment to consolidation.

So, help me out here. If this is an impediment to consolidation as you claim. Why is it that Parker himself isn't the one asking the 9th to hurry up??? If this truly was an "impediment", it would be his right to do so, right?

Could it be that since Parker has a legal list to use and plans to put something on the table that cleary knows will pass a vote, remember cleary asked for NMB involvement, so no obstructing a vote. That it is in fact cleary that has an impediment to consolidating his DOH plan???

Or maybe cleary is a swell guy and is doing Dougs legal work for him on our dime.

Flip

 

[TheBadCat1313]

veritasaequitas, on 17 April 2010 - 01:19 PM, said:

"Scott Kirby, President of US Airways, speaking to a
group of its pilots in Phoenix on May 27, 2009, commented directly on this appeal.
The airline’s President noted that the pilot negotiating process “can’t finish until
you get all the way through the appeal” and that it was “unlikely” that any
agreement could be reached or if reached would not likely get ratified. (Ex. D, at ¶"

So, help me out here. If this is an impediment to consolidation as you claim. Why is it that Parker himself isn't the one asking the 9th to hurry up??? If this truly was an "impediment", it would be his right to do so, right?

Actually, no. USAirways is not a party to this portion of the lawsuit and has no business trying to prod the 9th into a decision. Doug also isn't that stupid. But somebody else is.

Could it be that since Parker has a legal list to use and plans to put something on the table that cleary knows will pass a vote, remember cleary asked for NMB involvement, so no obstructing a vote. That it is in fact cleary that has an impediment to consolidating his DOH plan???

The company could have come out and said at any time over the last few years "we have accepted the Nicolau list and that's what we're going to use" but why would they do that? They've been saving hundreds of millions of dollars per year, watching the pilots fight over this and laughing all the way to the bank. I agree that they probably plan on putting something out there that will pass a vote. They just don't want to be the bad guy who tells the east that the Nic is the list. They want the 9th to do their heavy lifting for them. They want to be "Pontious Pilot" in this. It has worked great for them so far, but now, with the prospect of a merger on the horizon, the squeeze is on. That's the "impediment" that I spoke of. Sorry if it didn't come across that way.

Or maybe cleary is a swell guy and is doing Dougs legal work for him on our dime.

Flip

Not really sure what you mean by this.