US Pilots Labor Thread 3/4-3/11-READ THE FIRST POST

[Tiger 1050]

I think we all see the pattern here.

Thanks

Nothin' huh? Bummer.

 

[toganoflex]

Does Judge Wake have the legal latitude to impose a solution or instruct the parties to engage in a process of his own liking which is neither DOH or the NIC?

From the 10/29/08 Preliminary Injunction hearing transcripts (163:23-164:1):


THE COURT: My general sense, Mr. Seham, is I'm not
here to decide to choose between competing notions of wise
labor policy and different views of seniority policy. That's
not the Court's responsibility.



I think that gives you a pretty good idea as to what Wake is going to do with the Nicolau Award - absolutely nothing.

 

[ClueByFour]

Now, you know...they will argue that it was not their "responsibility" to be represented...it was USAPA's to do it for them.

Caveat: it is.

I'd hate to be on their side when this whole deal goes down.

Why? They are going to win.

You cannot simply end-around binding arbitration. No amount of unique legal moves by USAPA changes that fact.

I think USAPA needs to be renamed "The Flying Right Seat Mulligans."

 

[Tiger 1050]

"The Flying Right Seat Mulligans."

I don't care who you are! That thar is funny!!!

 

[oldiebutgoody]

Oldie, I totally agree with working within the system in order to change it. However, I am not personally aware of any union contract language quite like what I was seeing be described. Additionally I am not personally aware of another fact pattern quite like this one where after a binding arbitration was decided that the losing side basically decided to ignore the arbitration and cramdown seniority provisions via a new union.

So, show me where a labor union cannot be founded on a set of principles, something like DOH. No cramdowm here, just the recognition of ALPA's stupidity and lack of a coherent merger policy which should have been based on the same sort of principles, but was not. I think that the Judge's decision for a jury trial will bode really well for USAPA, largely because the DOH argument is such common sense, and the actions of many on the West was so juvenile. Trying to explain how virtually any other means of merging lists is somehow more "fair" is ludicrous. Just try to explain how experience and dedication to a company can just be "tossed out", placing guys with as many as 17 years less time with the company ahead of others and virtually ending their careers is fair. Go ahead, try it. See what sort of responses you get. This isn't about DOH, it's about fair. The way ALPA handled MANY East affairs was flawed, including the pensions, LOA 93, etc. The Nic was just one item of concern. If anybody has a DFR case, I believe it's the East guys against ALPA. USAPA is now the pilot's CBA. PERIOD. therefore, you either work within the system and the law, or you don't participate at all. That's the way it is.

 

[toganoflex]

...you either work within the system and the laws...

You should pass along that advice to Seham.

And you can see by the lack of spin USAPA is putting out as to how excited they are about the upcoming jury trial.

And the Nicolau award isn't on trial here, its USAPA.

 

[hp_fa]

No cramdowm here, just the recognition of ALPA's stupidity and lack of a coherent merger policy which should have been based on the same sort of principles, but was not.

Just a question. Where was the concept of working within the system in changing ALPA's merger policy before East lost the arbitration?

 

[BoeingBoy]

I don't like OBAMA....doesn't change a thing, does it.

I think you're beginning to see the light! Now replace "OBAMA" with "the Nic award" and you're on the right track.

Jim

 

[Tiger 1050]

So, show me where a labor union cannot be founded on a set of principles, something like DOH. No cramdowm here, just the recognition of ALPA's stupidity and lack of a coherent merger policy which should have been based on the same sort of principles, but was not.

I don't believe anybody from the west will dispute that. However I take exception to the "no cramdown" remark. It's clearly a cramdown.

I think that the Judge's decision for a jury trial will bode really well for USAPA, largely because the DOH argument is such common sense, and the actions of many on the West was so juvenile.

Maybe. However merits of DOH is not what will be argued in this case. We'll have to see how the claim of juvenile actions is presented. So far we have not seen any real evidence of dissent other than the legal formation of groups that oppose USAPA. Individual actions could be brought up but now you are tripping over dollars to pick up pennies if you catch my meaning. Somehow I believe the Judge will consider it mostly irrelevant to the issues at hand. That's just my opinion mind you...

Trying to explain how virtually any other means of merging lists is somehow more "fair" is ludicrous. Just try to explain how experience and dedication to a company can just be "tossed out", placing guys with as many as 17 years less time with the company ahead of others and virtually ending their careers is fair. Go ahead, try it. See what sort of responses you get. This isn't about DOH, it's about fair.

Yes this is about what is fair. Duty of Fair Representation to be exact. Fair from a personal perspective is subjective. The requirements for a union to meet its DFR obligation is clearly articulated however. Further you comment as though the west pilots have no vested time with their company or that they have no equal experience. Nothing more than emotion...

The way ALPA handled MANY East affairs was flawed, including the pensions, LOA 93, etc. The Nic was just one item of concern. If anybody has a DFR case, I believe it's the East guys against ALPA. USAPA is now the pilot's CBA. PERIOD. therefore, you either work within the system and the law, or you don't participate at all. That's the way it is.

Fair enough. Go after ALPA all you want. Heck I'd even spend my own money to help you fund that. But to think you could recoup your losses at the expense of the west is where you'll fail to win any argument with any jury. The west had nothing to do with it. Period.

 

[Waketurbulence]

So, show me where a labor union cannot be founded on a set of principles, something like DOH. No cramdowm here, just the recognition of ALPA's stupidity and lack of a coherent merger policy which should have been based on the same sort of principles, but was not. I think that the Judge's decision for a jury trial will bode really well for USAPA, largely because the DOH argument is such common sense, and the actions of many on the West was so juvenile. Trying to explain how virtually any other means of merging lists is somehow more "fair" is ludicrous. Just try to explain how experience and dedication to a company can just be "tossed out", placing guys with as many as 17 years less time with the company ahead of others and virtually ending their careers is fair. Go ahead, try it. See what sort of responses you get. This isn't about DOH, it's about fair. The way ALPA handled MANY East affairs was flawed, including the pensions, LOA 93, etc. The Nic was just one item of concern. If anybody has a DFR case, I believe it's the East guys against ALPA. USAPA is now the pilot's CBA. PERIOD. therefore, you either work within the system and the law, or you don't participate at all. That's the way it is.

Everthing you just said is nothing but pure emotion. NONE of your "emotional" arguments will be heard by the jury. They are there to listen to the facts, not an emotional cry for what "you" think is fair.

What they will hear is the FACT that the seniority list has already been determined via a legally BINDING ARBRITRATION as outlined by a legal document called a "TRANSITION AGREEMENT". That agreement is still in place and it outlines THE process in which the seniority WILL be determined. They will hear that the so called union is attempting to ignore this agreement and impose a list they made up with NO input from ANY WEST PILOT.

This is the language in the TRANSITION AGREEMENT:

IV. Seniority List Integration

A. The seniority lists of America West pilots and
US Airways pilots will be integrated in accordance
with ALPA Merger Policy and submitted to the
Airline Parties for acceptance. The Airline
Parties will accept such integrated seniority list,
including conditions and restrictions, if such list
and the conditions and restrictions comply with
the following criteria...(which they do)

The company has ACCEPTED the submitted list as required by the agreement.

This is contract LAW and only FACTS will be admitted in court. The Judge will see to that.

This is NOT a pitty party for what you think is fair....

 

[nostradamus]

American, Southwest and other airline pilots that are not members of the alpa union. (airline pilots association)


the Coalition of Airline Pilots Associations (CAPA) Board of Directors, has approved the full membership of USAPA into CAPA

 

[Tiger 1050]

I think Airtran pilots just voted to join ALPA. Anybody know if this is true?

 

[nostradamus]

I think Airtran pilots just voted to join ALPA. Anybody know if this is true?

""The board of AirTran Airways’ independent pilots union has approved an agreement"

Do not forget the USAirways alpa pilots union "board" reelected themselves without pilot participation in March 2008. The UsAirways front line pilots promptly voted the "board" and alpa off the property and chose USAPA in
April 2008.



Voting will take place between March 11 and April 10.

 

[Tiger 1050]

""The board of AirTran Airways’ independent pilots union has approved an agreement"

Do not forget the USAirways alpa pilots union "board" reelected themselves without pilot participation in March 2008. The UsAirways front line pilots promptly voted the "board" and alpa off the property and chose USAPA in
April 2008.



Voting will take place between March 11 and April 10.

Alright I think I got it. NPA board members voted to merge with ALPA. The pilots on the other hand still must vote and that takes place between March 11 and April 10th.

 

[Phoenix]

Just a question. Where was the concept of working within ..ALPA...?

AHAHAHAHAHAHAHA


No. Really... that was funny.