US Pilots Labor Thread 3/4-3/11-READ THE FIRST POST

[EastUS]

You're right about differing opinions. I've just got the gut feeling that if it had been ALPA and the language was in your contract, this would be added to your list of "ALPO giveaways."

If I'd thought it a benefit; I'd be entirely hypocritical and completely dishonest to claim that I wouldn't have added that twig to the bonfire of what Alpa so easilly gave away over time. Where we primarilly differ here's that I can't see any "benefit" to keeping anyone over 58 from any available upgrades...especially having flown with 60 year old "First Officers" myself.

PS: Jim. All the hours you spent working on bids/etc under Alpa are not at all unappreciated..regardless of how easilly we can tear into our respective thoughts/opinons/etc on these boards. That I feel Alpa to have ultimately proved itself a complete failure as a "union" doesn't diminish my respect for all efforts from any/all that actually worked hard to benefit line people. Concerning any/all mutual "Nyaah Nyaahs"? = I figure we're both "big kids"..and neither of us will sustain the least damage from any such

 

[EastUS]

If they had achieved that trade-off, indeed if the NAC/BPR had achieved anything in return rather than just rolling over like an obedient puppy, you wouldn't hear us complaining.

"you wouldn't hear us complaining", :blink: Thanks..that's the most utterly hilarious thing I've heard all day.

 

[electricjet98]

Where we primarilly differ here's that I can't see any "benefit" to keeping anyone over 58 from any available upgrades...especially having flown with 60 year old "First Officers" myself.

How many of those 60 year old "First Officers" were/are enjoying "Captains" pay? That was a benefit that west pilots enjoyed at a cost to the company. Your weak-sisters rolled over on it.

 

[EastUS]

How many of those 60 year old "First Officers" were/are enjoying "Captains" pay? That was a benefit that west pilots enjoyed at a cost to the company. Your weak-sisters rolled over on it.

Would not those same 60 olds have been permanently prevented from taking the left seat under your "strong" little sisters' contract provision? What'd happen if they'b lost their left seat due to furloughs/downsizing? Would they then become ranked among the "Who cares about 'em......that's not MEEE!!" concerns out there?

 

[electricjet98]

Would not those same 60 olds have been prevented from taking the left seat under your "strong" little sisters' contract provision?

That is what you fail to understand. The vast majority, and perhaps all of them, wanted to stay in the right seat because they were able to enjoy a far better schedule than what their seniority would have enabled them to enjoy in the left seat...and...they were pay-protected at Captain rates! It was the best of both worlds!

How many junior Captains sitting on reserve now, would prefer to be senior line-holding FO's and getting Captain's pay?

 

[EastUS]

That is what you fail to understand. The vast majority, and perhaps all of them, wanted to stay in the right seat ...

Kindly bring forward one or more of "the vast majority". I'd rather hear that from them. That some would choose that's not surprising, but I believe it's insane to enact prhibitions against those over 58 going into the left seat. Additionally; my question wasn't about any presumed preferences of others from yourself, but simply whether or not they'd be prohibited from upgrading past 58, as I understand was the case. If true? = Explain to me how that's not flagrant discrimination.

 

[Waketurbulence]

Would not those same 60 olds have been permanently prevented from taking the left seat under your "strong" little sisters' contract provision? What'd happen if they'b lost their left seat due to furloughs/downsizing? Would they then become ranked among the "Who cares about 'em......that's not MEEE!!" concerns out there?

eastus,


What about a guy that is 60 years old and enjoying life in the right seat making CA pay. Can you tell me, since he is in the right seat and unable to upgrade now as there are no bids out, if he will now enjoy a paycut to F/O pay compliments of usapa?

 

[Elevation]

He understands, but won't admit his precious union is wrong. USAPA just gave the company something the pilots wanted/bargained for and in return received....nothing. ALPA laughs at the Hypocrisy.

 

[EastUS]

What about a guy that is 60 years old and enjoying life in the right seat making CA pay. Can you tell me, since he is in the right seat and unable to upgrade now as there are no bids out, if he will now enjoy a paycut to F/O pay compliments of usapa?

I definately see your point there, and will freely admit I hadn't considered that situation before. Regardless of any west vs east BS; Personally? I don't want to see anyone out there reduced in living conditions/income.,,admittedly; not really for reasons of any even residual empathy for your group, but rather the profession at large. On the other side of the issue = Should this same hypothetical 60 year old out west be denied the left set for the remainder of his/her career?

 

[Waketurbulence]

I definately see your point there, and will freely admit I hadn't considered that situation before. Regardless of any west vs east BS; Personally? I don't want to see anyone out there reduced in living conditions/income.,,admittedly; not really for reasons of any even residual empathy for your group, but rather the profession at large. On the other side of the issue = Should this same hypothetical 60 year old out west be denied the left set for the remainder of his/her career?

There in lies the problem. Something was put out to vote that you and your comrads has no business voting on. How can you vote on something that is this important without knowing the facts and consequences of your actions. A guy that is 60 and can hold the most senior bidding positions in the right seat AND get paid Captain pay or now with the infinite wisdom of usapa (would be a reserve if there was a bid) may get a cut in pay. I'm sure they're very happy to once again get screwed by your union. Disgusting!

 

[luvn737s]

As usual in your zeal to take a swipe at the West anytime you string more than 4 words together, you miss the point. Changing that provision was of benefit to the company, which meant that it was a bargaining chip for the union. A bargaining chip cheerfully given away by the union and the east pilots who have the vast majority of voting power.

Jim

That's only part of the problem, Jim. The company sees how easy it is to get rid of contract provisions they don't like. So what will be the next thing USAPA gives away in order to pursue their elusive IOU's from the company at the table? Short term disability? How about vacations? Pay rates?

The company told USAPA they would only negotiate a joint contract, but when it came time to gut the AWA one, USAPA all too willingly obliged. They could have held the company's feet to the fire and forced them to negotiate. Instead they threw the west contract on the fire to make the room a little more cozy.

I ask USAPA's most ardent defenders to please give a west pilot one good reason why they should follow this clown show. Sure the east pilots got their chance to get a whack in at the west's expense, and maybe that made them feel good in the short term. But why couldn't USAPA spent just a few bucks and poll the west pilots before putting out a referrendum to the entire membership on an issue that didn't apply to 95% of them?

Did USAPA really think their latest move would help them in the upcoming DFR suit?

 

[EastUS]

He understands, but won't admit his precious union is wrong. USAPA just gave the company something the pilots wanted/bargained for and in return received....nothing. ALPA laughs at the Hypocrisy.

Thanks for attempting to do my thinking for me. Kindly up the selected voltage the next time you make the feeble effort for better results. In response to your post though = BS. If people are truly disadvantaged out there by this, then it was wrong to do it. It's my feeling that intentionally disadvantaging anyone 58 or over by denying the left seat's ridiculous and discriminatory.

As for " ALPA laughs at the hypocrisy"? Alpa?..laughing at "hypocrisy"!!??? :blink: Thanks for the second best joke I've heard today

 

[EastUS]

.... may get a cut in pay.

So; We're dealing with the purely hypothetical at this point? As to your earlier = Kindly stop with all the supposedly disenfranchised "victimized" whining. You folks out there have not only been continuously encouraged to get involved, make your concerns known, and VOTE from day one forward to the present, but, have instead, most adamantly and actively refused to do so. That you've, as a group, completely refused to participate in any of this isn't reasonably of the least concern to myself and most others out east.

 

[NiceLandingCaptain]

I recently spoke with the #1 Airbus FO in PHX. He is one of those who will be affected by this change. To say the least, he is highly agitated at usapa for allowing this vote to proceed. He told me he purposefully by-passed upgrade for three years so that he could take advantage of this "within 12 months of your 58th birthday" contract feature for his remaining three years on line (remember the age 60 rule was in effect until 12/13/2007). He is a commuter/lifestyler/family man.

Thanks to usapa, he will be forced to make a big decision when the next equipment bid comes out: lifestyle or paycheck. And it is a decision he should not have had to make. The supreme irony here is that the ultimate usapa soundbite "Our seniority is not for sale" apparently does not apply to all usapa members equally. For us on the West, usapa seems blissfully pleased with themselves to simply give our seniority away.

 

[Elevation]

Thanks for attempting to do my thinking for me. Kindly up the selected voltage the next time you make the feeble effort for better results. In response to your post though = BS. If people are truly disadvantaged out there by this, then it was wrong to do it. It's my feeling that intentionally disadvantaging anyone 58 or over by denying the left seat's ridiculous and discriminatory.

As for " ALPA laughs at the hypocrisy"? Alpa?..laughing at "hypocrisy"!!??? :blink: Thanks for the second best joke I've heard today

USAPA got into office by blaming MEC/ALPA for "give backs"/not caring about the contract, DOH or pilots etc. Why wouldn't this be considered hypocrisy when USAPA starts benefit "give backs" from the west contract without any thing in return? Meet the new boss is same as the old boss.