US Pilots Labor Discussion

[Pi brat]

Doug believed it. The bankruptcy judge believed it. The creditor's committe beleived it (including ALPA). The rest of the Management negotiating team and representatives belived it. Hollerbach believed it. No one believed it or mentioned it until Cleary and $eham invented the idea as a Clintonesque style bombing of Sudan to distrct from their impending policy failures. USAPA knows they can only drag the pilots along with empty promises of a DOH contract so they invented a new hope of snapback wages to keep from seeing civil unrest in the east pilot ranks.

The Company most certainly did ofer a complete explanation reagrding the language of the LOA93 and why it contained no pay restoration provisions such as would be common to any ALPA contract that actually did contain such a provision. The Company's case is very strong; on the contrary, USAPA is just hoping for another miracle, reality-challenged ruling like they got from the 9th.

I don't think any of us were there, so I guess we will see what the arbitrator says, and we know how that goes! I just wonder why it is taking him so long.

 

[fodase]

Face it fodase. The merger saved AWA from a none too bright future.

And usair from no future at all. BTW what is the "gold standard" in pilot integrations in the US of A?

 

[CallawayGolf]

I don't think any of us were there, so I guess we will see what the arbitrator says, and we know how that goes! I just wonder why it is taking him so long.

Well the transcript of the two-day testimonies was 726 pages by itself. That doesn't include the exhibits referenced during testimony or the “box” of evidence referred to as “too large to copy”. I’m guessing the box contains the east CBA with all of the letters and negotiation notes, and a multitude of documents presented to the bankruptcy court which clearly demonstrate that the wage restoration was not identified during that proceeding. Proving that something doesn’t exist among massive piles of paperwork is much more time consuming that proving that it does exist. We all know it doesn’t exist because that would imply that ALPA knowingly committed fraud/perjury to the bankruptcy process by consenting to long-term wage projections that they believed were incorrectly calculated but chose to say nothing.

Parker, as the primary representative of the Company and the Shareholders’ interests is correct. That is, if ALPA had indicated during their review that LOA93 called for a 41% increase in pilot wages starting on 1/1/2010, then Parker would have structured the reorganization plan differently (no snapbacks either way). That means that either the wage restoration provision would have had to be removed prior to exiting bankruptcy, or AWA and the investors who were funding the transaction would have walked away from the deal altogether. So, if Kasher rules in favor of pay restoration, US Airways has a significant claim for fraud and damages against ALPA and the east pilots who were silent when the law called for full disclosure.

 

[Pi brat]

And usair from no future at all. BTW what is the "gold standard" in pilot integrations in the US of A?

Depends on who you ask and how they define it. I don't see a "gold standard", we went off the "gold standard"some time ago, so it's just paper money! What that's worth may vary, and may be manipulated by false perceptions and expectations.

 

[Pi brat]

Parker, as the primary representative of the Company and the Shareholders’ interests is correct. That is, if ALPA had indicated during their review that LOA93 called for a 41% increase in pilot wages starting on 1/1/2010, then Parker would have structured the reorganization plan differently (no snapbacks either way). That means that either the wage restoration provision would have had to be removed prior to exiting bankruptcy, or AWA and the investors who were funding the transaction would have walked away from the deal altogether. So, if Kasher rules in favor of pay restoration, US Airways has a significant claim for fraud and damages against ALPA and the east pilots who were silent when the law called for full disclosure.

Why? That would mean that Doug thought there was a chance we wouldn't complete a joint contract by 1/1/10, and there is not a westie alive that thinks that was a possibility absent the (unknow at the time) election of USAPA, right?

I mean, a joint contract was so easy to achieve and right around the corner, right?

 

[CallawayGolf]

Why? That would mean that Doug thought there was a chance we wouldn't complete a joint contract by 1/1/10, and there is not a westie alive that thinks that was a possibility absent the (unknow at the time) election of USAPA, right?

I mean, a joint contract was so easy to achieve and right around the corner, right?

I know you are just making a quip, but every contract was reviewed and considered before the reorganization plan was presented. The LOA93 was looked at and everyone involved came to the same conclusion - when the freeze ends, the pay rates remain the same but the $35M lump sums were due and payable if a new JCBA wasn't ratified by then. I'm sure most hoped that a JCBA would be in place, before 2010, but that doesn't mean the risk of wage restoration wasn't a big topic for the strategy to exit bankruptcy and merge with AWA.

 

[Pi brat]

I know you are just making a quip, but every contract was reviewed and considered before the reorganization plan was presented. The LOA93 was looked at and everyone involved came to the same conclusion - when the freeze ends, the pay rates remain the same but the $35M lump sums were due and payable if a new JCBA wasn't ratified by then. I'm sure most hoped that a JCBA would be in place, before 2010, but that doesn't mean the risk of wage restoration wasn't a big topic for the strategy to exit bankruptcy and merge with AWA.

And prudent, as it turns out. I won't guess at the final answer on this one either.

 

[fodase]

Depends on who you ask and how they define it. I don't see a "gold standard", we went off the "gold standard"some time ago, so it's just paper money! What that's worth may vary, and may be manipulated by false perceptions and expectations.

Well let's look at the evidence shall we? ah never mind, let's do a multiple answer test shall we?

What has been the favored method of pilot integration in the us for the last 20 years using alpa policy, allegheny mohawk or any other policy?

A- DOH
B- Slotting

Which A or B ?

 

[Pi brat]

Well let's look at the evidence shall we? ah never mind, let's do a multiple answer test shall we?

What has been the favored method of pilot integration in the us for the last 20 years using alpa policy, allegheny mohawk or any other policy?

A- DOH
B- Slotting

Which A or B ?

Perhaps you should read the Nic award, as it is a combination of DOH, slotting and staple. Again, no gold standard, it's now subject to assumptions. That's one positive with straight DOH, not subjective at all.

 

[Black Swan]

First look at the language in LOA 93, which is copied below.
Revisions to Hourly Pay Rates:
The rates of pay specified in Section 3 of the Agreement, as modified by the Restructuring Agreement, will be revised as follows:
1. Freeze current rates effective 5/01/04 through 12/31/09.
2. Reduce rates as frozen by 18.0%
3. Reduce International pay override, as stated in Section 3(F) and Section 18(C), by 18.0% for transoceanic trips; Eliminate international override for non-transoceanic trips.
4. Pay all flying at day rate.
Freeze and reduce rates through 12/31/09.” Where does it give a date for half pay DH ? It doesn't Where does it give a date for vacation to "unfreeze" ?? It doesn't Where does it deal with a lower rate for training? Nowhere. Where does it refer to any other giveback than the pay having an end date? It doesn't. What does it give a specific date to? THE PAY. As required by ALPA Nat'l and negotiators so as not to give the company an open ended concession, against the ALPA consititution and by laws. The end date was given to the pay to comply with above, and have a fail safe ending in case some unforseen event transpired. But who put it in? Who agreed to it? THE COMPANY! The unforseen event, a screwed up "merger " beyond belief. Kasher is going to see it. Your arguments don't stack up against the date. The date, is irrefutable evidence that this thing was meant to end, on that date. Nowhere, does it say RENEGOTIATE, as Jetzz and BB like to intimate. Nowhere is that language present. That is their own extremely biased and as usual, misinformed interpretation. Try negotiating that date away. You can't. The rate is frozen through 12/31/09. Then it goes back to the former. Parker had his chance to end this thing with pay parity. He didn't. Parker could have hedged oil before the Middle East cratered. He didn't. He will pay dearly for both.

 

[CallawayGolf]

And prudent, as it turns out. I won't guess at the final answer on this one either.

Prudent indeed. Now I won’t gamble on the arbitrator’s ruling either. However USAPA is pinning its hopes on what a pilot believes happens when training and pay rates unfreeze while the company is relying on certified documents presented to a bankruptcy judge which explicitly state what the 2010 and 2011 wage rates for pilots will be under LOA93; those are the ones showing the judge, the creditor’s committee and investors no increase in pilot pay over 2005-2009. Frozen and unfrozen, the rates are the same until a new agreement is in place.

 

[Black Swan]

Well let's look at the evidence shall we? ah never mind, let's do a multiple answer test shall we?

What has been the favored method of pilot integration in the us for the last 20 years using alpa policy, allegheny mohawk or any other policy?

A- DOH
B- Slotting

Which A or B ?

OR, NONE OF THE ABOVE......., "THIS IS FOR YOU GUYS TO DECIDE........." DOUG PARKER PHX CREW NEWS 2010

 

[Pi brat]

Prudent indeed. Now I won’t gamble on the arbitrator’s ruling either. However USAPA is pinning its hopes on what a pilot believes happens when training and pay rates unfreeze while the company is relying on certified documents presented to a bankruptcy judge which explicitly state what the 2010 and 2011 wage rates for pilots will be under LOA93; those are the ones showing the judge, the creditor’s committee and investors no increase in pilot pay over 2005-2009. Frozen and unfrozen, the rates are the same until a new agreement is in place.

Maybe, above my pay grade. You have to admit, it is very strange language and that makes me wonder........A friend of mine had an idea that it was on purpose to sell enough pilots to vote for LOA 93, thinking it would thaw. I have no idea.

 

[nic4us]

.......... the pay rates remain the same but the $35M lump sums were due and payable if a new JCBA wasn't ratified by then.

Hold the phone!!!!

Can anybody link LOA93? I have read the paragraph with the 12-31-2009 date and do not remember the two 35mil lump sums being in that paragraph.

Were the lump sums due jan 2010 and jan 2011 as penalties for not having renegotiated a new contract? In other words, would the 35 mil not been due if a new contract had been reached in say 2009, or the second payment not due if a contract was reached in 2010?

If so usapa lost this one big time. This fits right in with the typical usapa Sleezham MO.

 

[Pi brat]

Hold the phone!!!!

Can anybody link LOA93? I have read the paragraph with the 12-31-2009 date and do not remember the two 35mil lump sums being in that paragraph.

Were the lump sums due jan 2010 and jan 2011 as penalties for not having renegotiated a new contract? In other words, would the 35 mil not been due if a new contract had been reached in say 2009, or the second payment not due if a contract was reached in 2010?

If so usapa lost this one big time. This fits right in with the typical usapa Sleezham MO.

I don't think so. The 70 mil was a crumb tossed for the billions given up, and the guy CG talks about said it was mainly to make up for the changes to the DC plan. I have it, but prechil says we shouldn't attach things!