US Pilots Labor Discussion

[OTTER574]

USAPA has the responsibility to represent all pilots fairly, including the East pilots. Therefore, the legal objection to the NIC, which has not been resolved. Ya Know, Cleary may come out to be the hero in all this afterall.

breeze

Breeze,

The NIC is carved in stone and cannot be modified thanks to the back of the van brain trust known as usapa/bradford.

My paid for and forced hired Collective Bargaining Agent is usapa...next time breeze, get a true legal second opinion before you start and support an illegal quest called Duty Fair Representation against the WEST CLASS.

OTTER

 

[Move2CLT]

fodase,

I think you're wrong....there has been no legal settlement on this issue, it's still up in the air.....and even though you continue to call us scabs, which is out of line, you still have no conclusion to this legal matter. Chances are that Parker is not going to wait for a legal answer....he is under pressure to make this merger work, and I believe that he will just let it ride to the next arbitrator, who will take all matters into consideration. You may still win your precious NIC, but you guys are fooling yourselves thinking it will be an easy thing to integrate with the APA, who has the reputation of stapling their foes. They will do anything they can to push anyone down the list, me included.

breeze

There will be no stapling breeze. Those days are long gone thanks to M/B. APA's lawyers understand this as does the APA itself.

So relax.

 

[mrbreeze]

breeze you are confused, there is only one legal question that hasn't been answered.
The legal question is wether or not usapa can replace the existing list, that is the only legal question. There is no question at what the current lcc List is, please educate yourself, the company told judge silver that the nicolau is the current list inherited by usapa, the question before silver is if usapa can replace the existing list

I agree, however, if Sliver doesn't rule before the AA merger, the issue hasn't been resolved and noone can claim that they are legally absolutely right as to the outcome. I think Parker may see this as an out to his problems. If Silver rules in favor of the NIC, Parker has more possible BS to deal with as far as USAPA goes, and the East pilots. If Silver rules in favor of the USAPA, then Parker has to deal with possible DFR problems.

We are talking about a guy who wants this deal done as smoothly as possible with no liabilities afterwards. He is going to sidestep the issue and let it go to the next arbitrator to sort out......that is his best move. The only care he has about us is how to avoid having the pilot group delay, or possibly disrupt his big payday with this merger.

It would be very easy for the LCC atorneys to just delay things enough with the DJ until after the merger is announced.

I do have to say, this is only my opinion. Not trying to argue a right or wrong here.

breeze

 

[Move2CLT]

You keep saying that, but what legal objection hasn't been resolved? Remember before you answer - the 9th didn't reverse the District court. They just said that it was too early to have the trial because USAPA might present something besides the Nic that was agreeable to the west (which USAPA still hasn't done).

Jim

Its just breeze trying to regurgitate the USAPA propaganda and not doing a good job of it.

 

[mrbreeze]

You keep saying that, but what legal objection hasn't been resolved? Remember before you answer - the 9th didn't reverse the District court. They just said that it was too early to have the trial because USAPA might present something besides the Nic that was agreeable to the west (which USAPA still hasn't done).

Jim

Didn't the 9th also tell Wake to dismiss the case, which he did? Did USAPA not present a list with DOH with C/R's?, trying to represent all pilots fairly? Didn't Parker stop the process at this point because of the looming fight?

Where has anything been resolved in this dispute?

breeze

 

[Move2CLT]

If Silver rules in favor of the NIC, Parker has more possible BS to deal with as far as USAPA goes, and the East pilots.

breeze

LMAO!

What possible BS would Parker have to deal with?

USAPA is enjoined and when Silver doesn't give Parker the clearance to stray from the Nic, Parker is going to take the safe route and not move off the Nic award.

And USAPA can't do anything about it?

An injunction you say? Good luck.

 

[mrbreeze]

There will be no stapling breeze. Those days are long gone thanks to M/B. APA's lawyers understand this as does the APA itself.

So relax.

I understand that and am happy that it is out the window.....however, that has been their way of operating in the past, my only point. They want us pushed down as low as possible, so much so, that they will not want the NIC included. It doesn't matter if the NIC favored the East or the West, this will be their position. Now, whether they can legally do that is undecided.

breeze

 

[mrbreeze]

LMAO!

What possible BS would Parker have to deal with?

USAPA is enjoined and when Silver doesn't give Parker the clearance to stray from the Nic, Parker is going to take the safe route and not move off the Nic award.

And USAPA can't do anything about it?

An injunction you say? Good luck.

OK, but what happens if Silver doesn't make a ruling before the merger, and say, after that, LCC withdraws their request for the DJ?

breeze

 

[Move2CLT]

I understand that and am happy that it is out the window.....however, that has been their way of operating in the past, my only point. They want us pushed down as low as possible, so much so, that they will not want the NIC included. It doesn't matter if the NIC favored the East or the West, this will be their position. Now, whether they can legally do that is undecided.

breeze

I don't understand the logic? What does the Nic have to do with the APA. They don't really care what list we give them.

The Nic is only important to our side as it is the list we present to them. We could, theoretically give them anything, and the arbitrator will then integrate their list and ours.

The Nic has no relevance to them whatsoever.

And this will go relative seniority. That has, more or less, been decided.

 

[OTTER574]

I understand that and am happy that it is out the window.....however, that has been their way of operating in the past, my only point. They want us pushed down as low as possible, so much so, that they will not want the NIC included. It doesn't matter if the NIC favored the East or the West, this will be their position. Now, whether they can legally do that is undecided.

breeze

breeze,

You may get it someday....probably not!

AOL was formed and paid to protect west pilots interests, and very well I might add. Against alpa national, east alpa, east usapa, company and maybe soon APA.

OTTER

 

[fodase]

I agree, however, if Sliver doesn't rule before the AA merger, the issue hasn't been resolved

so think it thru, you agree that the nic. Is the current list, if the merger happens and usapa has not replaced the nic. What is the current list?

noone can claim that they are legally absolutely right as to the outcome. I think Parker may see this as an out to his problems. If Silver rules in favor of the NIC, Parker has more possible BS to deal with as far as USAPA goes, and the East pilots. If Silver rules in favor of the USAPA, then Parker has to deal with possible DFR problems.

let me ask what happens if usapa is kicked out before a new list can be negotiated? You think the apa inherits the nic. Just as usapa did?

We are talking about a guy who wants this deal done as smoothly as possible with no liabilities afterwards. He is going to sidestep the issue and let it go to the next arbitrator to sort out......that is his best move. The only care he has about us is how to avoid having the pilot group delay, or possibly disrupt his big payday with this merger.

It would be very easy for the LCC atorneys to just delay things enough with the DJ until after the merger is announced.

I do have to say, this is only my opinion. Not trying to argue a right or wrong here.

breeze

ok to have an opinion, but it needs to be taken from facts. Above you say he wants this to go smooth, what do you think the smoothest path for Parker is? Btw it is not legally possible for the arbitrator of amr/lcc merger to do anything about an already accepted and complete list.

 

[fodase]

OK, but what happens if Silver doesn't make a ruling before the merger, and say, after that, LCC withdraws their request for the DJ?

breeze

Then it goes back to what is the current accepted list doesn't it?

 

[nic4us]

OK, but what happens if Silver doesn't make a ruling before the merger, and say, after that, LCC withdraws their request for the DJ?

breeze

If LCC withdraws at this point, I suspect they would have a little issue.

That being we could all draw conclusions from their testimony in front of Silver, without the benefit of Silver's ruling. IOWs, they are on the hook if anything other than the Nic is used, and there is testimony on their part saying they believe they have to use the Nic.


On a completely different topic....I give Paul ( DOH or die trying and screw up the industry leading contract) Music about a zero percent chance of winning the runoff for PHL rep.

Cause from what I am hearing the east has done a complete 180 since last friday and just about everybody over there is ready to rake usapa over the coals if they even hint a effin up this deal over the Nic v. DOH.

 

[BoeingBoy]

Didn't the 9th also tell Wake to dismiss the case, which he did?

Dismissed on ripeness, not overturned on merit. There is a legal difference. Heck, the 9th even told USAPA that their DOH list injured the west and USAPA better represent both sides equally or face an "unquestionably ripe" DFR.

Did USAPA not present a list with DOH with C/R's?, trying to represent all pilots fairly?

Well, USAPA did present a DOH list with C/R's but that was what triggered the Addington suit so it was there for all to see at both the Addington trial and the 9th appeal. It got USAPA a guilty verdict on the merits and a warning from the 9th on appeal. Yet USAPA hasn't offered anything else.

Didn't Parker stop the process at this point because of the looming fight?

No. USAPA's insistance on using it's list, despite the guilty verdict in the Addington and warning from the 9th, remained the same. So the company filed the DJ, asking for a determination of it's legal responsibility. You can call that a "time out" but it was the only logical path leading to a single contract. If US insisted on the Nic, there'd be no combined contract because USAPA objected. If US accepted USAPA demand to use the DOH list, there'd be repercussions from the west. Stalemate. So who is at fault for the delay? USAPA for insisting on it's list despite the guilty verdict and warning from the 9th is what I'd say.

Where has anything been resolved in this dispute?

Anything? That leaves a lot of room for non-legal disagreement and there will be that till the last pilot on the Nic list dies. What has been resolved is the legal dispute between east and west - short of USAPA having a change of heart and actually representing both sides equally. All the objections USAPA had to using the Nic have been knocked down - the majority can't do anything it wants, ALPA didn't submit an incorrect list, etc. All that's left is "The Nic isn't fair" which isn't a legal argument.

All you and others are doing with the 3-way idea is trying to find another excuse for the east to not be stuck with the "unfair" results of the Nic. If USAPA goes into negotiations with APA using two US lists - the east and west list - it's just another DFR suit waiting in the wings. Giving the east the benefits of the post-US/HP merger while sticking the west with the losses of that same merger is in no way representing both sides equally. US knows that, west knows that, APA is aware of that. The only one's that don't seem to get it are the east USAPA faithful still wanting to improve their careers at the expense of the west.

Jim

 

[Move2CLT]

On a completely different topic....I give Paul ( DOH or die trying and screw up the industry leading contract) Music about a zero percent chance of winning the runoff for PHL rep.

Cause from what I am hearing the east has done a complete 180 since last friday and just about everybody over there is ready to rake usapa over the coals if they even hint a effin up this deal over the Nic v. DOH.

I've heard that as well.

Seems there is a price that the easties will take to accept the Nic award and it seems to be the same as the term sheets Doug is offering the APA.

Those easties are now afraid that USAPA will screw this up and they no longer trust their own leadership!! LMAO.

Never think you are above being bought - because there's always a price.

I agree that Music isn't going to get that vote count now because of his DOH or die trying mantra.

The days of fighting the Nic are over. Its time to move forward and move2clt.