US Pilots Labor Discussion

[fodase]

And what was that "thing" that PREVENTED them from implementing it? That is right. Change of representation. The same thing that kills it going forward again. Prevented, harsh.....Separate ops. Going forward. Let's hope she says we have to use the Nic, and this thing gets tied up for 10 more yrs.

Don't worry, she won't force the Nic. on you, she can't. What she won't do is give the company immunity, you all know that and that is why usapa wanted this dismissed and why they will appeal. No immunity for the company no DOH no possible release by the NMB. So if a merge comes along you get the Nic. shoved up your tail pipe, until then all of you old clowns have no possibility of getting out of loa 93 or retiring under it.

 

[Black Swan]

Correct me if I am wrong but weren't these were motions to dismiss on various rules after the initial complaint? If so then all that has occurred is a gate has been passed to allow the process to proceed to discovery right? There are various other points in court proceedings where motions to dismiss are made, through discovery, motions for summary judgement and during a trial.

All it sounds from the posting is discovery is going to take to place to provide more information. How could anyone from any side know how this is going to proceed? There could be subsequent motions to dismiss at points down the road that are acted on. There might be a trial that provides a favorable ruling to any of the parties. At the very least, I am guessing the judge allowing discovery helps her fashion any future rulings with a record to protect during appeal.

This isn't really a win/loss situation.

Exactly> Contrary to what Koontz is blastmailing on SPARTA NEWS, this is hardly anything big. Metro doesn't even begin to understand. Show me where she has made a ruling contrary to USAPA and putting any meat into what Leonidas can get in to? So what if she moves forward. All it means is it is taking more time. If it goes too far, it goes t SF again, and we know how that will end. Just like it did last time. Nothing has changed in their minds. It is Arizonal legal that is confounded. Different judge, same outcome as Wake. What has changed in labor law? Nothing. This is a win for the company only, as it stops anybody from getting any contract. As for all the claims that Kasher has ruled for the company? That is some awful wishful thinking. Now, if that comes in for the East, then it is really over for the west. The east gets a huge raise, and the west gets stalled forever behind by Silver. Exactly what Doug likes. Another problem for the pilots. This time, the west pilots. Bottom line is this. Do you EVER hear an east pilot rushing to get a contract? Never. It is constant west push to get the Nic and your job. This goes exactly against that. It sets back their move even further. This was no fast forward for the west. It was not anything that gets them one inch farther along. It just buys Doug more time.

 

[nic4us]

Crying...Really?.....Must really jerk your chain when we don't get upset over your ranting and raving, huh, Metroman? But you are correct in one thing....Your drunken CEO had done a good job of turning a 'real' airline into a giant POS by trying to bring us down to your level....

V

LMAORONTF,

"real" airline.......how funny!!!!

Hey "real" airline pilot.....you do realize your "real" airline was such a "real" disaster it got bought by the drunken CEO .... right?

 

[767one]

Just started going through Judge Silver's ruling. Here's a nugget on the first page (these are the facts gentlemen....even Judge Silver sees DOH for what it is...it's all about favoring East over West)

The East Pilots–who would benefit much more from a strict “date of hire” seniority
rule–were dissatisfied with the Nicolau Award. The East Pilots formed a new labor union
known as USAPA. The USAPA constitution mandates seniority be determined by “date of
hire.” The East Pilots significantly outnumber the West Pilots and when put to a vote by all
the pilots, USAPA was certified as the labor union for both the East and West Pilots.

Yaah,

That's what is known as democracy.


Bob

 

[fodase]

I'll take your word on this one. I have to say that almost everyone of my east and WEST friends were wrong on this one, because the they thought she would dismiss, even though they had different ideas of what that would mean. Me, I had no idea.

I'm glad she will hear it. Now the company can't drag it out to appeal, we will just let USAPA or AOL do that. What, down to 3-5 years?

I sat in on the hearing and I couldn't really discern which way she was leaning, with that said most learned west guys in attendance thought her line of questioning lead them to believe she would dismiss. One thing we all agreed on was that Silver saw the harm to the west and it was very clear she was deeply familiar with the situation. I didn't post that to taunt you this time, I know you are one of the few that has expressed doubts on usapa being able to prevail dfr 2. This ruling reenforces your doubts as even our attorneys are pleasantly surprised and encouraged by her tipping her hat in such a matter.

 

[nic4us]

Exactly> Contrary to what Koontz is blastmailing on SPARTA NEWS, this is hardly anything big. Metro doesn't even begin to understand. Show me where she has made a ruling contrary to USAPA and putting any meat into what Leonidas can get in to? So what if she moves forward. All it means is it is taking more time. If it goes too far, it goes t SF again, and we know how that will end. Just like it did last time. Nothing has changed in their minds. It is Arizonal legal that is confounded. Different judge, same outcome as Wake. What has changed in labor law? Nothing. This is a win for the company only, as it stops anybody from getting any contract. As for all the claims that Kasher has ruled for the company? That is some awful wishful thinking. Now, if that comes in for the East, then it is really over for the west. The east gets a huge raise, and the west gets stalled forever behind by Silver. Exactly what Doug likes. Another problem for the pilots. This time, the west pilots. Bottom line is this. Do you EVER hear an east pilot rushing to get a contract? Never. It is constant west push to get the Nic and your job. This goes exactly against that. It sets back their move even further. This was no fast forward for the west. It was not anything that gets them one inch farther along. It just buys Doug more time.

Keep spnning Swan. You are way off base.

Rule 11 motion.......denied.

Seeham is a union busting scab lawyer, and his frivolous motion to harm AOL financially was denied. What a complete cretin.

Any word on Polsinelli's rule 11 counter?

 

[Metroyet]

Well one thing I think we ALL can agree on is this: Lee Seham failed once again and he alone is soley reponsible for keeping you all on LOA 93 for nearly a full year longer than you'd have to. If it weren't for the motion to dismiss, this thing might be over. Now it's only begun. All thanks to Lee $e$ham.

a couple of million for $e$ham, tens of millions of dollars LOST to mostly East pilots. Never to be recovered.

Well played once again USCABA!!

 

[Black Swan]

I sat in on the hearing and I couldn't really discern which way she was leaning, with that said most learned west guys in attendance thought her line of questioning lead them to believe she would dismiss. One thing we all agreed on was that Silver saw the harm to the west and it was very clear she was deeply familiar with the situation. I didn't post that to taunt you this time, I know you are one of the few that has expressed doubts on usapa being able to prevail dfr 2. This ruling reenforces your doubts as even our attorneys are pleasantly surprised and encouraged by her tipping her hat in such a matter.

Who really cares which way she is leaning. If she gets her nose into internal union business, she will get exactly what WAKE got. SPANKED!!! She better do what Wake didn't= get familiar with labor law. Lets' hope she tries to impose the NIC. The NMB will have to assign another DC-3 to PHX with another stick of labor lawyers with parachutes

 

[Black Swan]

Well one thing I think we ALL can agree on is this: Lee Seham failed once again and he alone is soley reponsible for keeping you all on LOA 93 for nearly a full year longer than you'd have to. If it weren't for the motion to dismiss, this thing might be over. Now it's only begun. All thanks to Lee $e$ham.

a couple of million for $e$ham, tens of millions of dollars LOST to mostly East pilots. Never to be recovered.

Well played once again USCABA!!

All one has to say is ADDINGTON. Has the same meaning to Lee Seham as Gettysburg did to Meade.

 

[Black Swan]

Just started going through Judge Silver's ruling. Here's a nugget on the first page (these are the facts gentlemen....even Judge Silver sees DOH for what it is...it's all about favoring East over West)

The East Pilots–who would benefit much more from a strict “date of hire” seniority
rule–were dissatisfied with the Nicolau Award. The East Pilots formed a new labor union
known as USAPA. The USAPA constitution mandates seniority be determined by “date of
hire.” The East Pilots significantly outnumber the West Pilots and when put to a vote by all
the pilots, USAPA was certified as the labor union for both the East and West Pilots.

Here goes your argument into the toilet. East mechanics outnumber west. East F/A 's outnumber the west. East Agents outnumber the west, East ramp, outnumber the west. All go DOH. Where is the problem? Nowhere. East pilots outnumber the west. DOH. The west pilots now say this is harmful, and cry foul. It will go where all the others have.

 

[GorgeousGeorge]

I sat in on the hearing and I couldn't really discern which way she was leaning, with that said most learned west guys in attendance thought her line of questioning lead them to believe she would dismiss. One thing we all agreed on was that Silver saw the harm to the west and it was very clear she was deeply familiar with the situation. I didn't post that to taunt you this time, I know you are one of the few that has expressed doubts on usapa being able to prevail dfr 2. This ruling reenforces your doubts as even our attorneys are pleasantly surprised and encouraged by her tipping her hat in such a matter.

If she saw the harm, she would have allowed the cross-claim. It sounds like she is simply going to allow discovery on the US Airways DJ complaint. There were three scenarios US Airways envisioned on how this could be dealt with but the result won't be limited by that. It could be dismissed, any one of the three a combination or it could be something else. Why keep the west pilots as defendants if she was going to rule in their favor? My guess, is she doesn't know how this will play out. If this makes it through discovery and past summary judgment to a trial and the final ruling reiterates that this it is all an internal union dispute and the union is free to set it own policy and bargain as such, any claim of harm can only be brought against the union going forward on this issue and it will bind the West pilots since they are still a party. Any claim could only be brought against the union at that point. US Airways would be in the clear at that point. Most 12b motions to dismiss are not acted on unless someone is suing for a million dollars because they didn't get their peanuts. All that order said was in a long winded way that on the "face" of it, US Airways claim "appears" valid and should not be dismissed at this point but rather to determine the same on its merits.

 

[nic4us]

Who really cares which way she is leaning. If she gets her nose into internal union business, she will get exactly what WAKE got. SPANKED!!! She better do what Wake didn't= get familiar with labor law. Lets' hope she tries to impose the NIC. The NMB will have to assign another DC-3 to PHX with another stick of labor lawyers with parachutes

Swan, Swan, Swan.....

She is not ruling on "internal union business"...she is going to rule on the company's request. Read the three questions posed.

Oh, one more thing...when this all started 4 years ago..everybody asked what is different about seniority that it is not negotiable like a crew meal. Pay attention to what Parker has said over and over again. the company does not care what list. The company is staying out of it.. Siegel testified in court that,,,"we don't counter the proposal with something else, we just accept what the union gives us".

You guys are sooo correct when you say it is an "internal union dispute", where you are wrong is that the dispute was settled with "binding arbitration" and voting in new representation does not change that fact.

You have two choices because of the TA...Nic or Status Quo..simple really. usapa's filing the disingenous LOA93 arbitration is just a topper of what scumbags you guys are for trying to renege on every deal you have signed.

 

[nic4us]

Here goes your argument into the toilet. East mechanics outnumber west. East F/A 's outnumber the west. East Agents outnumber the west, East ramp, outnumber the west. All go DOH. Where is the problem? Nowhere. East pilots outnumber the west. DOH. The west pilots now say this is harmful, and cry foul. It will go where all the others have.

The problem is usapa is a scab organization, and is going to be shown the door. Of course the little union busting lawyer will stick around for a paycheck til the end.

 

[prechilill]

Here goes your argument into the toilet. East mechanics outnumber west. East F/A 's outnumber the west. East Agents outnumber the west, East ramp, outnumber the west. All go DOH. Where is the problem? Nowhere. East pilots outnumber the west. DOH. The west pilots now say this is harmful, and cry foul. It will go where all the others have.

Uhhh..none of those groups have what you have: Nicolau baby!!!! See how protected you are? Now- back in that right seat!

 

[Black Magic]

Here goes your argument into the toilet. East mechanics outnumber west. East F/A 's outnumber the west. East Agents outnumber the west, East ramp, outnumber the west. All go DOH. Where is the problem? Nowhere. East pilots outnumber the west. DOH. The west pilots now say this is harmful, and cry foul. It will go where all the others have.

The difference is with DOH set for ramp, gate agents, ect. they don't get paid different rates based upon what machinery they operate.