US Pilots Labor Discussion 9/9- STAY ON TOPIC AND OBSERVE THE RULES
- Thread starter Richard
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Freebird
Veteran
He's much shorter than I thought.
A DL pilot quoting Section VII C of the US Airways Transition Agreement? Hmm...you really need a hobby.
Part of making sure that a disaster like this never happens again is to understand how it happened. There is a reason why the Delta merger went the way it did and it comes down to planning and leadership, something completely absent from USAPA. After studying this problem for over a year before the merger, I still have interest despite not doing union work anymore. Thanks for the life advice though. If you guys ever want some advice on how to get a decent contract, let me know.
No problem, just here to help. I heard there was a DL Pilot's Knitting club chapter in ATL, if you live there.
I'm afraid advise from a DL pilot on getting a good contract wouldn't do us any good. You must not have heard, Doug says we don't bring in as much cash as you guys so, so we can't make as much. Plus, we just arent' as good or worthy. I guess you were asleep when they taught that in indoc.
May I remind you,......we were under ALPA 'planning and leadership' at the time of our merger.
Maybe the Delta merger went so well because ALPA realized how badly they failed and made sure that a disaster like this never happened again?
Glad we could help!
We merged under the same merger policy as you did. As you know, ALPA National has nothing to do with the management of the local union. I know you guys like to blame others for all of your self-generated problems, but it just doesn't cut it in my book. The success of the Delta merger came from a plan completely generated within the Delta MEC. The Northwest MEC bought in to a certain degree, but at times wanted to start the merger death match. We refused to engage in that behavior, it takes two to fight so there never was a fight. We came up with our own merger process that became the model for the new ALPA merger policy.
So you can try to foist off your problems on ALPA National. Who is to blame for the last two years? Is there any statute of limitations where you guys take responsibility for your own actions or do you give yourselves a free pass for the rest of your careers? This whole mess could be over quickly, you guys just have to decide to end it. But blame me if it helps you sleep at night. As for me, I choose to take control of my own affairs and avoid finger pointing.
Black Flag
Newbie
- Nov 4, 2007
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Since I'm a lover of Pink Floyd and a good laugh... I must admit that was very original and funny!
See...we can find common ground! B)
I find the brief for West pilots very sloppy on Document 34 answer and cross claims. One of the many facts they are trying to provide are the following. This is not splitting hairs, you frankly deserve better counsel.
91. Pre-merger US Airways had five such domiciles (PHL, CLT,
LGA, PIT, DCA) and America West had two (PHX, LAS).
51. ALPA Merger Policy stated, among other things:
a) “The Award of the Arbitration Board shall be final and
binding on all parties to the arbitration;” and
B) “The purpose of arbitration shall be to reach a fair
and equitable resolution consistent with ALPA policy.” ALPA has it in their policy to intervene in disputes of arbitration, not mentioned in your brief.
117.Had there been no wrongful actions by the East Wrongdoers,
Operational Pilot Integration using the Nicolau Award would have been
fully completed before October 2008.
77. Since becoming the certified labor representative, USAPA has
knowingly and intentionally done the following to the Addington Pilots’
detriment:
a) Re-affirmed USAPA Seniority Policy without making
any effort to give due consideration to West Pilot
interests;
B) Taken steps to implement USAPA Seniority Policy;
c) Promoted, encouraged and aided East Pilots to breach
duties owed to and established for the benefit of West
Pilots;
d) Stated that any contract it would negotiate with
US Airways: “will not contain any reference to recent
Nicolau document [the Nicolau Award]”; and
e) Stated: “When the majority of member pilots in good
standing vote yes on our new agreement, then this
document [the Nicolau Award] dies on the shelf.”
111. On March 3, 2008, the ALPA Executive Council voted to put
the PHL Local Council 41 into an emergency trusteeship because of
evidence that PHL Local Council 41 officers, Eric , Dave
, and Jim, were supporting USAPA during the NMB
representation election while officers and status representatives of
ALPA.
There is no substantial evidence of 111. Interesting to note, Current ALPA President John Prater and pilot "neutral" in the Nicalou arbitration mandated by ALPA, Brucia, were in the top positions of The Independent Continental Pilots Association when they were accused of stonewalling their members in order to join ALPA, which they succeeded. Against ALPA merger bylaws United Airlines Brucia was also a "neutral" assisting Arbitrator Nicloau with the Usairways America West merger even though United and Usairways were in constant merger discussions during that time. Fortunately Paul Rice, Vice President of ALPA and United Pilot started his """"neutral ALPA committee"""""" to monitor fairness and listen to concerns of the East pilots. This lasted until East pilots DFR possibilities expired.
There are many more Document 34 errors. I have posted a link to Document 34 filed by our "brothers and sisters" in the West below so we all may correct their facts before their case is dismissed.
West Pilots in the spirt of their past 28j theme current filing.
91. Pre-merger US Airways had five such domiciles (PHL, CLT,
LGA, PIT, DCA) and America West had two (PHX, LAS).
51. ALPA Merger Policy stated, among other things:
a) “The Award of the Arbitration Board shall be final and
binding on all parties to the arbitration;” and
B) “The purpose of arbitration shall be to reach a fair
and equitable resolution consistent with ALPA policy.” ALPA has it in their policy to intervene in disputes of arbitration, not mentioned in your brief.
117.Had there been no wrongful actions by the East Wrongdoers,
Operational Pilot Integration using the Nicolau Award would have been
fully completed before October 2008.
77. Since becoming the certified labor representative, USAPA has
knowingly and intentionally done the following to the Addington Pilots’
detriment:
a) Re-affirmed USAPA Seniority Policy without making
any effort to give due consideration to West Pilot
interests;
B) Taken steps to implement USAPA Seniority Policy;
c) Promoted, encouraged and aided East Pilots to breach
duties owed to and established for the benefit of West
Pilots;
d) Stated that any contract it would negotiate with
US Airways: “will not contain any reference to recent
Nicolau document [the Nicolau Award]”; and
e) Stated: “When the majority of member pilots in good
standing vote yes on our new agreement, then this
document [the Nicolau Award] dies on the shelf.”
111. On March 3, 2008, the ALPA Executive Council voted to put
the PHL Local Council 41 into an emergency trusteeship because of
evidence that PHL Local Council 41 officers, Eric , Dave
, and Jim, were supporting USAPA during the NMB
representation election while officers and status representatives of
ALPA.
There is no substantial evidence of 111. Interesting to note, Current ALPA President John Prater and pilot "neutral" in the Nicalou arbitration mandated by ALPA, Brucia, were in the top positions of The Independent Continental Pilots Association when they were accused of stonewalling their members in order to join ALPA, which they succeeded. Against ALPA merger bylaws United Airlines Brucia was also a "neutral" assisting Arbitrator Nicloau with the Usairways America West merger even though United and Usairways were in constant merger discussions during that time. Fortunately Paul Rice, Vice President of ALPA and United Pilot started his """"neutral ALPA committee"""""" to monitor fairness and listen to concerns of the East pilots. This lasted until East pilots DFR possibilities expired.
There are many more Document 34 errors. I have posted a link to Document 34 filed by our "brothers and sisters" in the West below so we all may correct their facts before their case is dismissed.
West Pilots in the spirt of their past 28j theme current filing.
aquagreen73s
Veteran
- Aug 22, 2005
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Do you realize those two sentences copied in the exact order from your post are non sequitur? If seniority + transition agreement were just an "internal union matter," then don't you wonder why the company would be filing the dec action? Remember, attorneys can be sanctioned for filing suits merely for the purposes of delay or harassment; not everyone uses the legal system the way USAPA does. No, the reality is that despite everything you've been told, the company does care which seniority list is incorporated into the joint contract.
wings396
Veteran
- Aug 20, 2002
- 3,672
- 1,122
I have pretty much avoided this topic, but feel the need to chime in here. The reason that the DL/NW merged list went down better was mainly because there wasn't a HUGE GAP in their lists once combined. In the HP/US case there is one due to the fact that HP didn't start operations until 1983, and US has a bulk of its' pilot group that is far senior to those on the west side. Given that this us the major sticking point for US/HP, and it didn't come into play with NW/DL says it all. Regardless what decision was made by anyone, and whom it was in favor of, there was going to be at least 1/2 of the combined pilot group that wasn't happy with it. I am in favor of honoring seniority, and for all of the other work groups on the property that the way it went down. I certainly wouldn't want a Fleet guy coming into my station from the west with 15 years less seniority, and bumping me out of my shift. About the only bone the IAM threw the west fleet group was a blanket date of hire seniority instead of a classification date as we have on the east side. I may have given a few of them a leg-up on seniority, but certainly not years worth of it.
I assume that you are not a pilot, is so then I am sorry if I offend your sensibilities. The difference between pilots is that pilot pay is almost completely dependent upon your RELATIVE standing amongst your group rather than your years of service. Mechanics, agents, flight attendants, all have a single pay scale that is dependent only upon years of service. Pilots have vastly different pay scales that depend upon your relative standing within your group and only slightly upon your years of service. For example, using the East pay scales, a 5 year Airbus Captain makes almost 50% more than a 20 year E-190 F/O. The ability to hold one pay scale or the other depends not upon your years of service, but on your relative standing within your group.
If you look at pilot integrations in the last 15 years or so, beginning by the way with the US Air/Trump Shuttle, they have all been a ratio that recognizes relative standing (plus or minus) with some minor adjustments for years of service differentials. The integration matches how we all get paid. It is funny that US Air pilots placed Trump Shuttle pilots with many years of service below their pilots with much less years of service and had no problem with it. Only when they were on the other end of the stick did they start talking about "gold standards" and such. Even in their current seniority mess, they refuse to move the Trump Shuttle pilots to their rightful place based on years of service while they are simultaneously moving themselves ahead of West pilots. It places their fight about principles back into a blatant seniority grab designed only to benefit themselves. Their justification "oh, that is all in the past, let's forget about that." Profiles in courage.
Everyone realizes that these issues are very emotional and people will always have differences of perspective. That is why we have neutral arbitrators to come in and settle these differences. If you go to court, you can lose, and if you go to arbitration, you can not get your way. Accepting those outcomes are a part of adult life, we lost our right to throw temper tantrums when we turned into adults. The East pilots have thrown an extended temper tantrum that has cost them, their families, their co-workers, and their company hundreds of millions of dollars in lost wages, revenue, and advancement opportunities. Their tantrum continues to hamper their company's ability to adapt to a vastly changing industry. So far they have nothing to show for it. If they simply adopted the Delta pay scale, their pilots would receive pay raises of 25% or more immediately. I won't even talk about work rules that allow me to complete my hours working many fewer days than an average LCC pilot.
The whole situation has transformed from sad to pathetic. As the damage continues, even your management team is trying to step in and force the East pilots to live up to their obligations. It is pathetic when the management team cares more about their pilots than the union does. I am sorry if you would have a hard time putting up with a disappointment if some fleet person with less years of service bumped you out of your shift. Life is not fair, get over it.
flybynite
Veteran
I've often wondered why the pilots don't go with a single pay scale. I seem to have read somewhere that most of the european carriers are paid that way. (correct me if I'm wrong.)
Given that we will eventually be a single aircraft type, why not? It might help eliminate some of your problems.
Given that we will eventually be a single aircraft type, why not? It might help eliminate some of your problems.
Black Swan
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- Dec 13, 2009
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What isn't fair about bringing the 190 F/O group up to living wages, then equalizing the two employee groups so the pay is fair across the board?
Black Swan
Veteran
- Dec 13, 2009
- 2,894
- 5,045
They missed the part where we gave him the NEW ring.
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