US Pilots Labor Discussion 9/23- STAY ON TOPIC AND OBSERVE THE RULES

[No Land Green]

That may be, but how much of that gain was due to his fellow furloughees not returning, retiring while on furlough, retirement from medical leave, etc? All of which didn't get him any closer to a captain or widebody job. It's no wonder why East pilots love to throw out numbers for total attrition, ignoring the smaller amount of attrition that will create upward movement.

Jim

Hi Jim,

I've known this guy for quite some time and have flown with him years ago. He's an '89 hire and was in one of the first classes of recalls, so the upward movement was from mostly active pilots retiring. Sans a merger and Age 60, this guy would be a Group 2 Captain now. With Nic, he may never see it for 8 to 10 more years. As I stated earlier, East attrition is the main reason for a guy returning from furlough. After the Nic, more than half of the furloughed guys and gals didn't return.

Years ago there was a pilot here on the East that would post statistics of the pilot group, his name resembled a cartoon dog. His postings had the age 60 attrition in the 300 range every year starting in the late 2000's.



We all know that the high East attrition rate is driving this whole argument. The East wants to recapture it and the West doesn't want to let go of it.

 

[N924PS]

[quote name='No Land Green' date='12 October 2010 - 05:04 PM' timestamp='1286921046' post='763987
Me really thinks with a UNIFIED East and West Pilot Group, the party will be over on the ninth floor in Tempe........
[/quote]

And there lies the rub.

There will not be a UNIFIED pilot group until the Section 22 problem is resolved once and for all. And that can't happen with DOH and USAPA's Conditions and Restrictions. The West won't jump on the self-help bandwagon for that.

So you have 1800 or so West pilots plus several hundred on the East that would vote NO on a strike vote. I guess the company has us right where they want us, and will for years to come while this plays itself out in court.

 

[GorgeousGeorge]

And there lies the rub.

There will not be a UNIFIED pilot group until the Section 22 problem is resolved once and for all. And that can't happen with DOH and USAPA's Conditions and Restrictions. The West won't jump on the self-help bandwagon for that.

So you have 1800 or so West pilots plus several hundred on the East that would vote NO on a strike vote. I guess the company has us right where they want us, and will for years to come while this plays itself out in court.

There are just as many or more East pilots that wouldn't support a strike vote in support of a contract with the Nicalou for section 22. So if you argument in support of Nicalou is that the company won't get serious about a joint contract with significant improvements because 1800 pilots won't get aboard over section 22, just realize that argument cuts both ways and is ineffective.

 

[N924PS]

Sans a merger and Age 60, this guy would be a Group 2 Captain now.

But there was a merger, without which your friend would have not been recallled. And the Age 65 change went into effect in December 2007 enabling everyone that wishes to fly, another 5 years. Including your friend.

I think a lot of you lose sight of the fact there was a merger. It's no longer the airline you started with. That's gone forever, just like PSA,PI,Trump Shuttle, numerous crew bases and many airplanes. America West brought a lot to the merger and they should share in any growth that comes as a result of the merger.

 

[nycbusdriver]

The East Pilots "brought" attrition, the Golden Egg, "to the merger". Just a small oversight by the West, Nic and ALPA. This "Golden Egg" is very important to the East and the West. If it were not, there would be no seniority argument going on right now. East attrition is the only reason why any furloughed pilot I have talked to has returned to US Airways. One guy told me he moved up 385 numbers between 2007 and 2008 after his return from furlough.

BINGO!

Even the top group of 517 east pilots that the west loves to vilify had already attritted by about 20% before Nicolau even published his abomination.

 

[john john]

America West brought a lot to the merger

?

 

[traderjake]

There are just as many or more East pilots that wouldn't support a strike vote in support of a contract with the Nicalou for section 22. So if you argument in support of Nicalou is that the company won't get serious about a joint contract with significant improvements because 1800 pilots won't get aboard over section 22, just realize that argument cuts both ways and is ineffective.

The argument is not ineffective, the union is because either way there is no unity.

 

[nic4us]

?

^
w + $

 

[RSVP767]

And the Age 65 change went into effect in December 2007 enabling everyone that wishes to fly, another 5 years. Including your friend.

Yeah, another 5 years in the right seat for the F/O's

 

[mikey60]

And there lies the rub.

There will not be a UNIFIED pilot group until the Section 22 problem is resolved once and for all. And that can't happen with DOH and USAPA's Conditions and Restrictions. The West won't jump on the self-help bandwagon for that.

So you have 1800 or so West pilots plus several hundred on the East that would vote NO on a strike vote. I guess the company has us right where they want us, and will for years to come while this plays itself out in court.

Just where do you get these numbers?

 

[BoeingBoy]

Hi Jim,

I've known this guy for quite some time and have flown with him years ago. He's an '89 hire and was in one of the first classes of recalls, so the upward movement was from mostly active pilots retiring.

So nearly 400 active pilots retiring...I don't think so. If he was an '89 hire and in one of the first recall classes, there were quite a number of furloughees that didn't accept recall - retired while on furlough, went straight to long term medical leave, found a better job, whatever. That movement is a one time event. Then take out those that retired from medical leave that were mixed in with the active pilots - again not an insignificant number.

Years ago there was a pilot here on the East that would post statistics of the pilot group, his name resembled a cartoon dog. His postings had the age 60 attrition in the 300 range every year starting in the late 2000's.

Maybe he was a cartoon dog. Who knows what 2099 will bring - that's the late 2000's. However, if you meant 2000-2010, 300 pilots retiring a year is a fantasy, never mind 300 active pilots. Try maybe 200 in a big attrition year with less most years.

We all know that the high East attrition rate is driving this whole argument. The East wants to recapture it and the West doesn't want to let go of it.

It's a shame the East didn't argue that in negotiations/arbitration instead of DOH. As the East MC said, they wanted to protect the East attrition and the widebodies. Unfortunately, that wasn't good enough for too many East pilots then - remember the threats of recalling the MC - and everyone is living with the consequences of the East's all or nothing approach now.

Jim

 

[Pi brat]

So nearly 400 active pilots retiring...I don't think so. If he was an '89 hire and in one of the first recall classes, there were quite a number of furloughees that didn't accept recall - retired while on furlough, went straight to long term medical leave, found a better job, whatever. That movement is a one time event. Then take out those that retired from medical leave that were mixed in with the active pilots - again not an insignificant number.



Maybe he was a cartoon dog. Who knows what 2099 will bring - that's the late 2000's. However, if you meant 2000-2010, 300 pilots retiring a year is a fantasy, never mind 300 active pilots. Try maybe 200 in a big attrition year with less most years.



It's a shame the East didn't argue that in negotiations/arbitration instead of DOH. As the East MC said, they wanted to protect the East attrition and the widebodies. Unfortunately, that wasn't good enough for too many East pilots then - remember the threats of recalling the MC - and everyone is living with the consequences of the East's all or nothing approach now.

Jim

Jim,

Do you remember the west's last, best offer before we went all in with DOH? Actually it was LOS.

 

[RSVP767]

The irony is that even though the East went all in and lost DOH they still retained a very good seniority position with the NIC (exceedingly fair) and they will be afforded the benefit of two out of every three attrition vacancies to be filled by an east pilot (also exceedingly fair). The fact that so many east pilots are blinded to this is almost comical or perhaps pathetic is a better word for it.

Two out of three! My, how generous......considering the East provides FOUR out of every FIVE attrition vacancies!

This is one of the problems with the NIC. It shifts East advancement (advancement provided by the East mind you) to the West. The fact that so many West pilots cannot understand or acknowledge this is almost comical or perhaps pathetic is a better word for it.

The reality however, is that the West pilots are keenly aware of this.....which is why the West is chomping at the bit to get their St. NIC Lottery ticket cashed. The West understands the advantage (windfall) that Nicolau awarded them, but will never publicly acknowledge this fact.

Nicolau messed up big time. The fact that we are where we are.....and that we're even having this argument, is proof enough. Had the Opinion and Award been fair, we would all be better off today!

 

[BoeingBoy]

Two out of three! My, how generous......considering the East provides FOUR out of every FIVE attrition vacancies!

Even assuming you're right about the ratio of attrition, that's before you subtract attrition that doesn't leave a vacancy, especially a captain vacancy. Care to give the ratio of active line captain vacancies each side has starting in 2013 due to attrition?

Jim

 

[nic4us]

Two out of three! My, how generous......considering the East provides FOUR out of every FIVE attrition vacancies!

This is one of the problems with the NIC. It shifts East advancement (advancement provided by the East mind you) to the West. The fact that so many West pilots cannot understand or acknowledge this is almost comical or perhaps pathetic is a better word for it.

The reality however, is that the West pilots are keenly aware of this.....which is why the West is chomping at the bit to get their St. NIC Lottery ticket cashed. The West understands the advantage (windfall) that Nicolau awarded them, but will never publicly acknowledge this fact.

Nicolau messed up big time. The fact that we are where we are.....and that we're even having this argument, is proof enough. Had the Opinion and Award been fair, we would all be better off today!

It is extremely over generous. Considering that under the Nic, less than one in five Pilots in the top 1000 are West pilots.

What is pathetic is that after five years the east is still acting like the West was added to their list.

Nicolau messed up alright. He should have stapled the east to the bottom of the West list, and I am sure he would have if he thought the likes of usapa would come along to steal from the West anyway.

This award was more than fair to the ungrateful disgruntled malcontents that have proven they did not even deserve the luxury of arbitration.

St. NIC, Lottery ticket?

Guess what? The five year windfall the east has enjoyed at the direct expense of the West is coming to an end.

Wake probably will not take this case from Silver, but guess what he told the company today?

usapa is done. So is your DOH seniority theft scandal.