US Pilots Labor Discussion 9/23- STAY ON TOPIC AND OBSERVE THE RULES

[hp_fa]

I really don't think it had to turn out this way.

Unfortunately, IMO, I think the die was cast when the AAA leadership refused to offer an alternative option even when Nicolau basically pleaded for one. If there was one singular moment that could have changed (prevented) all of this, that was the moment.

 

[Pi brat]

Unfortunately, IMO, I think the die was cast when the AAA leadership refused to offer an alternative option even when Nicolau basically pleaded for one. If there was one singular moment that could have changed (prevented) all of this, that was the moment.

I think the die was cast much earlier when the management of this company treated the groups as they did and tried to squeeze every last penny out of us. We didn't have a leader in the company or the union that could get us through this.

 

[Pi brat]

There are 32 of the 40 left. Does that answer your question?

Nooo, the Wilson you listed was not in the 517.

 

[Pi brat]

You obviously can't explain it. Name one east asset that was given to the west. While you're checking, do tell where the three additional 757's, 330's and the 190's went since the "merger". So much for sharing growth.

I'm not talking about hard assets, I'm talking about bidding power that was shifted from the east to the west.

 

[Pi brat]

OK..... so for November the bottom 330 guy is Riolo. On the NIC list I found Riolo.
Counted 71 names above him in RED. Scientific no......point made......YES

NICDOA
NPJB

I understand your point and you did make it. It's hard to tell how many west pilots could hold the 330 right now for many reasons, not the least of which is-on what list? it seemed to me that you were talking about if Nic was implemented and clear was talking about if DOH was implemented, but right now I don't really know!

 

[Phoenix]

Unfortunately, IMO, I think the die was cast when the AAA leadership refused to offer an alternative option even when Nicolau basically pleaded for one. If there was one singular moment that could have changed (prevented) all of this, that was the moment.

So if Nic had settled on straight DOH, would you be saying the die was cast when the AWA leadership refused to offer an alternative to relative double or nothing even when Nicolau pleaded for one?

Gee Whiz, arbitrators deal with greedy land grabbers every day (that's why arbitration exists) and are supposed to divine where to cut the cake in half. If arbitrators simply rely on their feuding sides to come up with a solution then, duh, why not pick out a kid and offer them a snickers bar if they will simply flip a coin.

Nic has no one to blame for his failure but himself.

 

[hp_fa]

So if Nic had settled on straight DOH, would you be saying the die was cast when the AWA leadership refused to offer an alternative to relative double or nothing even when Nicolau pleaded for one?

Personally I believe that would have been the end of it. I believe that the West, while they would have been unhappy as hell, would have accepted the result of a full and binding arbitration.

 

[Pi brat]

Personally I believe that would have been the end of it. I believe that the West, while they would have been unhappy as hell, would have accepted the result of a full and binding arbitration.

The practical aspect of that is that the west would have lacked the majority to do what the east did, but they still would have had veto power on a joint contract and I have no doubt that they would have used it.

 

[Barrister]

I understand your point and you did make it. It's hard to tell how many west pilots could hold the 330 right now for many reasons, not the least of which is-on what list? it seemed to me that you were talking about if Nic was implemented and clear was talking about if DOH was implemented, but right now I don't really know!

Sorry I thought I have made it clear (no pun intended) that the NIC
is grossly unfair for that very reaon. Guys who were here 3 years before
AW was even in business cannot hold 330 but under NIC 71 Westies could
hold it now. Of course there would have to be 71 openings
with no East biddlers. That is not what I mean of course. When atrrition
kicks in there could be westies holding 330 by DOH. I don't think any Westies
could hold it DOH...at least not yet.

NICDOA
NPJB

 

[RSVP767]

You obviously can't explain it. Name one east asset that was given to the west. While you're checking, do tell where the three additional 757's, 330's and the 190's went since the "merger". So much for sharing growth.

Growth??? Do you really work here? Both sides are one hull above minimum fleet. There has been no growth......get over it!

Truth is.....the West is flying 24% of what could be considerd East flying while the East is flying 4% of what could be considered West flying. All legal under the TA apparently. So, in essence, the East is subsidizing a net 20% of the robust flying available out of the PHX powerhouse hub just to keep you guys above the required minimum block hours.

 

[Black Swan]

Personally I believe that would have been the end of it. I believe that the West, while they would have been unhappy as hell, would have accepted the result of a full and binding arbitration.

None of this would have happened had the "association " taken a stand, made a policy, and kept it the same way instead of shifting to the whims of the majority rule at the time. The rest of the employee groups managed to integrate without bloodshed. All groups except the pilots. Both represented by ALPA. That speaks volumes.

 

[BoeingBoy]

Growth??? Do you really work here? Both sides are one hull above minimum fleet. There has been no growth......get over it!

Growth is irreverent. Look at the transition agreement attachment B and tell me how many airplanes pre-merger US planned to operate in 2010. Now pre-merger HP. You'll soon dicover which side has fewer airplanes than planned since the merger and which side hasn't. Here's a hint - the West is almost 30 planes under the fleet plan while the East is above fleet plan thanks to the E190's.

Now consider this: the TA requires that the two MEC's (that's USAPA now) determine which side flies which planes acquired post merger that aren't in the fleet plan, with the criteria being the fair and equitable division of the flying. If the company doesn't agree with the association's decision, arbitration is required with the standard being the fair and equitable division of the new flying. How has USAPA done at fulfilling that requirement?

Jim

 

[cleardirect]

So if Nic had settled on straight DOH, would you be saying the die was cast when the AWA leadership refused to offer an alternative to relative double or nothing even when Nicolau pleaded for one?

Gee Whiz, arbitrators deal with greedy land grabbers every day (that's why arbitration exists) and are supposed to divine where to cut the cake in half. If arbitrators simply rely on their feuding sides to come up with a solution then, duh, why not pick out a kid and offer them a snickers bar if they will simply flip a coin.

Nic has no one to blame for his failure but himself.

Would you please point out where the arbitration rules state that the arbitrator just "cut the cake in half" If that were the case each side would simply stake out an extreme position and wait for the knife. Not the case. The arbitrator encourages both side to find mutually agreeable solutions. When that does not happen he decides where to cut the cake and it is rarely in the middle.

LOA 93. the company says no snap back the union says full snap back. The arbitrator does not give you half the pay rate you think you deserve and send everyone home. It is one or the other. Either the company won and you get nothing or the union won and you get what the arbitrator says you get. would you accept winning but only getting half the raise? would the company accept winning but still have to pay half the raise?

Where do you guy come up with this stuff?

 

[Phoenix]

Personally I believe that would have been the end of it. I believe that the West, while they would have been unhappy as hell, would have accepted the result of a full and binding arbitration.

That's not what I asked. I asked if you would justify an extreme arbitration result on the proposal of the side that would appear to have been penalized by the arbitrator for failing to give a solution that he was supposed to divine. If the west would hate it, would you tell them it was their fault because they failed to give the arbitrator a workable solution?

Not that any of this discussion has any impact on the current reality, or the road ahead.

 

[A320 Driver]

Growth is irreverent. Look at the transition agreement attachment B and tell me how many airplanes pre-merger US planned to operate in 2010. Now pre-merger HP. You'll soon discover which side has fewer airplanes than planned since the merger and which side hasn't. Here's a hint - the West is almost 30 planes under the fleet plan while the East is above fleet plan thanks to the E190's.

Now consider this: the TA requires that the two MEC's (that's USAPA now) determine which side flies which planes acquired post merger that aren't in the fleet plan, with the criteria being the fair and equitable division of the flying. If the company doesn't agree with the association's decision, arbitration is required with the standard being the fair and equitable division of the new flying. How has USAPA done at fulfilling that requirement?

Jim

Under your reasoning, East would be under minimum fleet count with ANY division of deliveries. West continues to take delivery of A-320 family aircraft. Both sides are just trading one hull for another.

Slice this up any way you like Jim. Neither side is benefiting from the deliveries of new aircraft.

Driver B)