US Pilots Labor Discussion 8/25- STAY ON TOPIC AND OBSERVE THE RULES

[Ames]

View PostAmes, on 29 August 2010 - 04:39 PM, said:
"When did your Merger Committee or MEC ever make such a statement? I don't believe they did. As always, I will remind you east posters to stop spreading lies."

What's your point? You restate my question in an attempt to justify your smokescreen? You're really reaching there.

 

[nycbusdriver]

What's your point? You restate my question in an attempt to justify your smokescreen? You're really reaching there.

Would the fact that the east MEC filed suit in DC district court against the west MEC over the Nicolau award maybe be SOME indication to you how the east MEC felt about it?

Granted, it was a supremely STUPID move by a clueless east MEC and just gave the east pilots even more reason to throw them, and the ALPA mother ship, out the door. But it very well might answer your question. Someone here, maybe KOAT, will post the original filing so we can see if the suit included a claim that the ALPA merger policy was not followed. I would be surprised if it didn't include that claim.

Then again, NOTHING that east MEC did would surprise me. FUD was their battle cry; LOA 93 was the result.

 

[nic4us]

America West the Frank Lorenzo pilots airline. Glad it is gone.

Gone? Where did it go?

Hint...take a look at the US emblem near the boarding door next time you get on an US airplane.

You crack me up with how clueless you are of your own situation.

Welcome to LCC, the official airline of the Nicolau award.

 

[nycbusdriver]

Gone? Where did it go?

Hint...take a look at the US emblem near the boarding door next time you get on an US airplane.

You crack me up with how clueless you are of your own situation.

Welcome to LCC, the official airline of the Nicolau award.

You mean those "legacy stickers?" LEGACY.

It's been quite a while since I've seen any airport signage that indicates where the American West gates are, where the American West ticket counter is. etc. Glad it's gone and nothing more than a mere legacy memory.

 

[Freebird]

notsofast, on 28 August 2010 - 10:43 PM, said:


Call it what you would like but the arbitration, bottom line, did not follow ALPA guidelines. We could argue about this all the time like we have, bottom line, see you in court.

I will ask you directly.

How EXACTLY did the Arbitrated Seniority List, aka Nicolau Award, not follow ALPA guidelines?

Please stay on point and explain your reasoning. Also, please read George Nicolau and the pilots neutrals explanation of how they crafted the list using the ALPA Merger Policy and managements requests to combine a list.

 

[nic4us]

What's your point? You restate my question in an attempt to justify your smokescreen? You're really reaching there.

Ames,

The point is that ALPA merger policy was followed. There is no arguement to put forth that would negate that fact.

Here are a couple more facts.

The company is a signator of the TA that mandates the use of ALPA merger policy as the method for combining the seniority lists of AAA and AWA. The process was completed with the presentation of the Nic to, and the company's acceptance of the award.

The company considers the TA as a binding contract and has been held to its clauses both in the TA 10 min block hour grievence, and the arbitration involving the out of seniority furloughs. Likewise, they will be held accountable for breach of contract if they abet usapa in any seniority redistribution.

usapa has nothing more than a failed premise proposed by a union busting law firm. The self proclaimed "expert" of labor relations and the RLA needs to go back to law school and get some remedial on contracts and good faith. No worries, that schooling is coming his way "shortly".

 

[Freebird]

Would the fact that the east MEC filed suit in DC district court against the west MEC over the Nicolau award maybe be SOME indication to you how the east MEC felt about it?

Granted, it was a supremely STUPID move by a clueless east MEC and just gave the east pilots even more reason to throw them, and the ALPA mother ship, out the door. But it very well might answer your question. Someone here, maybe KOAT, will post the original filing so we can see if the suit included a claim that the ALPA merger policy was not followed. I would be surprised if it didn't include that claim.

Then again, NOTHING that east MEC did would surprise me. FUD was their battle cry; LOA 93 was the result.

How was the ALPA merger policy not followed? Your MEC handed over a seniority list. Did they Purposely hand over a 'tainted list' to be able to cry foul "oh dear, the list you used wasn't proper....oh my..." just in case it didnt go their way?

Your AAA MEC leadership failed you. And many of those same pilots are failing you now, under a different brand, called Usapa. And because of their poor choices in the past, your group is trying to make up for those moves by hurting your West brothers. Face it, your leadership was directed to ask for DOH. They were warned by Nicolau that they wouldn't get DOH. Yet they persisted. And your group was disappointed. Who's fault is it?

How much have you lost in this stagnation? How much have we all lost? The world is passing this airline by. Your DOH stance is hurting the entire airline. The antics pulled by Usapa do not make this dump a viable merger partner. Again, you have yourselves to blame. Selfishness.

Usapa = We still make less than you $$$

 

[Freebird]

Frankly, what would you expect of a Union that has management and sore looser former west pilots fighting you every step of the way. USAirways will decide if there is a Happy Holiday for employees and passengers, they will be the cause but act like a victim as USAirways has over the last debacle type holiday situations.

Sore Losers? Do you work here? Have you paid attention to the actions of both parties? Do you understand why Usapa was formed? Have your read the Nicolau Award? Were you on furlough?

Are you insinuating a job action against the airline when you state:

"USAirways will decide if there is a Happy Holiday for employees and passengers, they will be the cause but act like a victim as USAirways has over the last debacle type holiday situations."


Usapa = How much have we cost YOU?

 

[nic4us]

You mean those "legacy stickers?" LEGACY.

It's been quite a while since I've seen any airport signage that indicates where the American West gates are, where the American West ticket counter is. etc. Glad it's gone and nothing more than a mere legacy memory.

It has also been quite a while since I have read any financial articles on the subject of how immenent AAA's demise is , how worthless their stock is, how broken their airline is as highlighted by Christmas meltdowns and multiple bankrupcy filings. Glad it is gone.

Enjoy the "mere legacy memories". With the help of your new employer, LCC and team Tempe, you are getting the gift of new memories every day.

 

[767intl]

boeingplt, on 29 August 2010 - 01:57 PM, said:
Lets see:

Q: Looking at Schedule 11 of USAPA’s latest LM2, I see the President was paid over $ 191,679 last year. Is that correct?

A: No, that figure is misleading and requires a more complete analysis to accurately understand what it represents. Neither the President nor any other Officer was paid that amount. Schedule 11 of the LM2 is by law filed to show all expenditures that were associated with any Officer of the Union. Being a National Union, all four Officers and the entire BPR are considered “Officers” since they have the ability to spend union moneys. Once a certain threshold of Flight Pay Loss (FPL) and/or expenses is reached, Committee members will also show up on the LM2 on Schedule 12.

The $ 191,679 figure reflects the President’s 85 hours of FPL (plus a 30% Benefits Override - the amount the union pays to the Company to reimburse the cost of benefits such as health care, etc. This override is paid to the Company, not to the pilot), plus all his expenses (hotel, per diem, etc,) his stipend ($1500/mo,) and any other reimbursements paid for expenses directly related to the performance of his job. For example, if the President put the cost of a meeting room for a BPR meeting on his expense report, it is included in the $191,679.00 figure.

BP, the likes of Nic4us have nothing left but distortion and ridicule. Their facts don't hold up and when challenged, they just come back with more smart-mouthed remarks like:

$191,679, but that includes health and benefits?

Well at least one east pilot is getting paid almost as much as a West captain. Now if the rest of you would stop with the whinning we could get a whole lot more paid better than that.

BP, this is just one more totally untrue Nic4us gem that distorts. When you back out the 30% benefits override, that $191K number works out to about $146K. That's in line with what Cleary could hold if he bid, plus his $1500/month stipend. Don't like the override? All it takes is a BPR resolution to change that. I haven't seen one coming out of the West, has anyone? Rather than admit he distorted the meaning of the LM-2 numbers, Nic4us does more of his smart-mouthed attacks. "Well at least one east pilot is getting paid almost as much as a West captain." Fact is, all wide-body CAs are over the West MPG. That's a far cry from "at least one east pilot."

Nic4us can smart-mouth all he wants, but his remarks haven't changed a thing. His group smart-mouths that the LOA-93 grievance hasn't been resolved. They want us to lose, because they know how that affects the majority's resolve for a quick and cheap contract, with or without NIC. Truth is, it will take 3-6 months after all the paper rebuttals were in before we get any word from the arbitrator. That might take us to Thanksgiving. We all know how long these rulings take, yet Nic4us can't let it go. Pick, pick, pick. I have no idea if we win LOA-93, but if we win it all, I can't see the company being willing to bring the West up to our pay rates any time soon. Even if the arb splits the baby, we'll still be close to, if not ahead of, West pay, depending on how he writes the ruling. Either case, separate ops for well into the future.

 

[nic4us]

I will ask you directly.

How EXACTLY did the Arbitrated Seniority List, aka Nicolau Award, not follow ALPA guidelines?

Please stay on point and explain your reasoning. Also, please read George Nicolau and the pilots neutrals explanation of how they crafted the list using the ALPA Merger Policy and managements requests to combine a list.

Freebird,

Sorry, but I am going to nip this one in the bud.

You are not going to get any reasonable reply to your question. All five tenants of ALPA merger policy were followed precisely. Further, the company's conditions as set forth in the TA were also met. There is no arguement otherwise. However, there might be responses of personal opinion that the Nic gives the West a windfall, ( an opinion only and obviously not shared by either Mr. Nicolau, the pilot neutrals, or the ALPA executive council ).

PS.

I do not know if you are following MM's post when refering to "eww that smell". It is a reference to my favorite Lynard Skynard song, That Smell. It has a wondefully powerful guitar work that uses pungent string bends and bell notes that fit sooo well with the moral of the lyrics. MM is making a link from your screen name Freebird, to the Lynard Skynard song Freebird, to That Smell. the ironic part of it is that I compare the lyrics of the song with the fools errand usapa has sought since its inception.

For instance, the opening line.

"Whiskey bottles, and brand new cars, oak tree your'e in my way".

The east pilots under the influence of dispair and anger (whiskey bottles), got themselves a new union (brand new car) to try and overcome the legal results of their company's merger and a binding arbitration ( oak tree). Their actions simply cannot overcome their issues, there is an immovable object in their way, they need a bulldozer, but got themselves a Yugo.

Another verse.

One little problem that confronts you,
Got a monkey on your back,
Just one more fix, Lord might do the trick,
One hell of a price for you to get your kicks.

I will leave it up to the lurkers and posters to figure out what the "problem" the "monkey" and the "fix-trick" represents (seems obvious to me), but the "price" is LOA 93 for five years and counting, extreme labor unrest, and the viability of the company that is ultimately the source of the jobs that should be shared proportionally, yet they want to bogart them all.

 

[767intl]

Why do you guys always throw a smokescreen when asked a direct question. It doesn't matter what a FORMER MEC leader says. Did your MEC or Merger Committee (who dealt with the current merger) make a formal statement that ALPA policy wasn't followed?

Ames, you got a direct answer with that u-tube. MC member Kevin Barry put out a u-tubed message, too. On my u-tube screen, it was on the right, with USAPA-related u-tubes. The MEC CH did not act on his own. He put that out and everything else he said at the direction of the MEC and paid for with MEC funds. What part of how unions work don't you get? It does matter what a former MEC CH says, because he speaks for the MEC.

I never claimed ALPa didn't follow merger policy prior to the award. After the award? i'd say ALPA screwed up, but probably because of the many conflicts of interest inherent in their dealing with 41 MECs that are all at each other's throats. Not a one of us wouldn't love to see another airline go BK, so that we could pick up the pieces/routes. It was Nicolau himself who misinterpreted it. But then with the faulty list that ALPA National forced our MC to use, I'll cut the old man a little slack. I expect ALPA had to send the list they sent, minus MDA, to be consistent with other legal entanglements they had. The results of the MDA DFR should clear all that up. For ALPa, it was a lose-lose. If they backed off the NIC award, they'd be DFRed by the West. I think the West might have had a good case. If they immediately submitted the NIC to the company, they would have guaranteed losing the property. They tried desperately to split the baby, EC sessions/resolutions, polling, presentations, Blue-ribbon committee, Paul Rice and Wye River. ALPa only dug themselves in deeper, giving USAPa more time to organize. ALPA's own conflicts of interest made this lose-lose. The letter Jack read said it all.

This mess still has a long shelf-life. We're still months away from MDA/LOA-93 results. Those will help determine direction. Company's attempt to get a ruling on which list to use could drag it out as well. Contract? We could be talking years. Meanwhile, I'll just sit back and wait to bid off the Boeing and onto the big overseas bus as a blockholder.

 

[Freebird]

Freebird,

Sorry, but I am going to nip this one in the bud.

You are not going to get any reasonable reply to your question. All five tenants of ALPA merger policy were followed precisely. Further, the company's conditions as set forth in the TA were also met. There is no arguement otherwise. However, there might be responses of personal opinion that the Nic gives the West a windfall, ( an opinion only and obviously not shared by either Mr. Nicolau, the pilot neutrals, or the ALPA executive council ).

PS.

I do not know if you are following MM's post when refering to "eww that smell". It is a reference to my favorite Lynard Skynard song, That Smell. It has a wondefully powerful guitar work that uses pungent string bends and bell notes that fit sooo well with the moral of the lyrics. MM is making a link from your screen name Freebird, to the Lynard Skynard song Freebird, to That Smell. the ironic part of it is that I compare the lyrics of the song with the fools errand usapa has sought since its inception.

For instance, the opening line.

"Whiskey bottles, and brand new cars, oak tree your'e in my way".

The east pilots under the influence of dispair and anger (whiskey bottles), got themselves a new union (brand new car) to try and overcome the legal results of their company's merger and a binding arbitration ( oak tree). Their actions simply cannot overcome their issues, there is an immovable object in their way, they need a bulldozer, but got themselves a Yugo.

Another verse.

One little problem that confronts you,
Got a monkey on your back,
Just one more fix, Lord might do the trick,
One hell of a price for you to get your kicks.

I will leave it up to the lurkers and posters to figure out what the "problem" the "monkey" and the "fix-trick" represents (seems obvious to me), but the "price" is LOA 93 for five years and counting, extreme labor unrest, and the viability of the company that is ultimately the source of the jobs that should be shared proportionally, yet they want to bogart them all.

That may be too Deep for some on this board to comprehend.

When signing on to this board, the moderator requests we stay on topic and in that spirit I ask notsofast to answer my question. In his/her own terms. Remember, stay with the facts. Not the emotion.

 

[nic4us]

BP, the likes of Nic4us have nothing left but distortion and ridicule. Their facts don't hold up and when challenged, they just come back with more smart-mouthed remarks like:




BP, this is just one more totally untrue Nic4us gem that distorts. When you back out the 30% benefits override, that $191K number works out to about $146K. That's in line with what Cleary could hold if he bid, plus his $1500/month stipend. Don't like the override? All it takes is a BPR resolution to change that. I haven't seen one coming out of the West, has anyone? Rather than admit he distorted the meaning of the LM-2 numbers, Nic4us does more of his smart-mouthed attacks. "Well at least one east pilot is getting paid almost as much as a West captain." Fact is, all wide-body CAs are over the West MPG. That's a far cry from "at least one east pilot."

Nic4us can smart-mouth all he wants, but his remarks haven't changed a thing. His group smart-mouths that the LOA-93 grievance hasn't been resolved. They want us to lose, because they know how that affects the majority's resolve for a quick and cheap contract, with or without NIC. Truth is, it will take 3-6 months after all the paper rebuttals were in before we get any word from the arbitrator. That might take us to Thanksgiving. We all know how long these rulings take, yet Nic4us can't let it go. Pick, pick, pick. I have no idea if we win LOA-93, but if we win it all, I can't see the company being willing to bring the West up to our pay rates any time soon. Even if the arb splits the baby, we'll still be close to, if not ahead of, West pay, depending on how he writes the ruling. Either case, separate ops for well into the future.

Here is a little "smart mouthed fact" for you. My w-2 for 2009 said over $168k. Add to that the estimated 30k in health and benifits, and you come up with $198k, an number very close, yet larger than Cleary's $191k lm-2 filing. So there you have it, but I will modify my statement further, "at least one east pilot is making close to what a West captain makes, but he ain't taking it home with him."

I have said many times I hope you win the LOA 93 grievence. That virtually assures seperate ops, no DOH and eventually the Nic, while in the mean time a return to rapid growth of the West. Sincerely, good luck, but I would also say your odds are as Mr. Kirby put it, "what is a number very close to zero." Further, the ridiculous updates usapa has put out on the subject are giving east pilots a very false hope of success. My favorite line was from the guy who made the arguement that (paraphrasing)"when you freeze something it thaws later, you don't expect to put steak in the feezer and later pull out fish". Well, duh...and you should not expect to have "frozen" adjusted pay rates thaw as un-adjusted rates.

Another question. How could the arbitrator "split the baby" on this one. Do you think the arbitrator is going to make up some half way rate that neither side sought, just because you went to the trouble of arbitration?

 

[Freebird]

Another question. How could the arbitrator "split the baby" on this one. Do you think the arbitrator is going to make up some half way rate that neither side sought, just because you went to the trouble of arbitration?

They wont honor an Arbitrators ruling anyhow. Maybe now is the time to set an example. Honor the Nicolau Award and move on. You're losing more than you'll ever gain back East.

Usapa = Am I 65 yet?