US Pilots Labor Discussion 8/25- STAY ON TOPIC AND OBSERVE THE RULES

[Black Swan]

This Skynrd Stuff is getting way too deep. You guys, have finally, lost touch with reality...........

 

[nic4us]

This Skynrd Stuff is getting way too deep. You guys, have finally, lost touch with reality...........

Well then I will spare you my interpretation of "Tuesdays Gone".

 

[MUTATIS MUTANDIS]

Well then I will spare you my interpretation of "Tuesdays Gone".

Thank you! MM! I think HENDRIX is more your affiliation!

 

[Ames]

Ames, you got a direct answer with that u-tube. MC member Kevin Barry put out a u-tubed message, too. On my u-tube screen, it was on the right, with USAPA-related u-tubes. The MEC CH did not act on his own. He put that out and everything else he said at the direction of the MEC and paid for with MEC funds. What part of how unions work don't you get? It does matter what a former MEC CH says, because he speaks for the MEC.

I'm still not buying the argument. Your MEC, nor your MC, never made such a statement in any formal manner. I understand very well how unions work. Politics, plain and simple. Rather than expeditiously hand over the arbitrator's decision John Prater played politics, commented negatively and held onto the decision. This was in order to placate the east who he was in danger of losing did he not play. Look how well that worked out for him.

 

[nic4us]

Thank you! MM! I think HENDRIX is more your affiliation!

Love guitar maestros. Hendrix, Santana, Stevie Ray, Eric Johnson, Satriani, Clapton, not a real Steve Vai fan though. Google Tuck Andress, and watch him and his wife cover "Time after Time", it will blow you away, it comes from such a different aspect than the popular versions everyone is used to. Then watch him cover Hendrix's "Little Wing". Amazing stuff.

Gotta go, I am going to take my own advice and imerse myself in a "Little Wing" escape, and reflect on how much more there is than our petty problems.

 

[Black Swan]

Here is a little "smart mouthed fact" for you. My w-2 for 2009 said over $168k. Add to that the estimated 30k in health and benifits, and you come up with $198k, an number very close, yet larger than Cleary's $191k lm-2 filing. So there you have it, but I will modify my statement further, "at least one east pilot is making close to what a West captain makes, but he ain't taking it home with him."

I have said many times I hope you win the LOA 93 grievence. That virtually assures seperate ops, no DOH and eventually the Nic, while in the mean time a return to rapid growth of the West. Sincerely, good luck, but I would also say your odds are as Mr. Kirby put it, "what is a number very close to zero." Further, the ridiculous updates usapa has put out on the subject are giving east pilots a very false hope of success. My favorite line was from the guy who made the arguement that (paraphrasing)"when you freeze something it thaws later, you don't expect to put steak in the feezer and later pull out fish". Well, duh...and you should not expect to have "frozen" adjusted pay rates thaw as un-adjusted rates.

Another question. How could the arbitrator "split the baby" on this one. Do you think the arbitrator is going to make up some half way rate that neither side sought, just because you went to the trouble of arbitration?

Well, I remember your legal team making a lot of claims about Wake and Addington. Your esteemed legal was destroyed coming and going to the tine of 2 million. Seems our legal prognostications were dead on the money. Your lack of understanding of ripeness was a fatal flaw. It cost you and continues to cost you. So lets' just wait to have our chuckle about the meaning of "freeze" wait until the man delivers. As I recall, much of the furball revolved around the meaning of freeze. So have a laugh at your own expense. I certainly remember nothing but the west pilots hoping LOA 93 is a loss.Cactus boy 53 being the one exception, and the one with sense. If it is, it will be another nail in your Nicolau dreams. I have a question regarding the "rapid growth of the west..." How is it going to happen? What is the driving entity? Regarding "splitting the baby." This is a much mentioned issue that I also believe to be a misnomer. This is going to be win or lose. Nothing in between. The only question is it going to be the $225.00 or vicinity rate for the 737 or the lower, or none? We shall see.

 

[nycbusdriver]

When did your Merger Committee or MEC ever make such a statement? I don't believe they did. As always, I will remind you east posters to stop spreading lies.

I'm still not buying the argument. Your MEC, nor your MC, never made such a statement in any formal manner. I understand very well how unions work. Politics, plain and simple. Rather than expeditiously hand over the arbitrator's decision John Prater played politics, commented negatively and held onto the decision. This was in order to placate the east who he was in danger of losing did he not play. Look how well that worked out for him.

Sent to me today by a good friend who keeps really good records:

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE

June 27, 2007

US Airways contact: Capt. Arnie Gentile

Air Line Pilots Assoc., Int’l.

US Airways Pilots Master Executive Council

(518) 424-8433; (412) 264-5600

US Airways Pilots File Suit to Vacate Seniority Arbitration Award



“The US Airways Pilots’ leadership can not and will not sit idly by and permit a seniority integration award, which was conceived outside our national union’s merger policies, to devastate the careers of so many of our pilots. This is not a case of simply being dissatisfied with an arbitrator’s award,” said Captain Jack Stephan, US Airways MEC Chairman. “When we [the US Airways pilots] signed on to arbitration, we fully expected the governing policies to be complied with. They were not, and as a result, the careers of many US Airways pilots are threatened with wholesale destruction.”

As part of the seniority award, the arbitrator transferred over 4,450 Captain flying years, of both narrow-body and wide-body aircraft Captain jobs, from US Airways pilots to America West pilots, which is a blatant violation of ALPA Merger Policy. That policy explicitly directs the arbitrator to avoid granting windfalls to one group at the expense of the other group.

Additionally the award mixes US Airways pilots with approximately 17 years of active service and no furlough time with America West new hires. If allowed to stand, the precedent-setting ramifications of this award will forever negatively affect the Air Line Pilots Association and quite possibly other national unions.

-----------------------------------------------

There. Happy now? The east MEC did indeed hold the opinion that the Nicolau shame did not meet ALPA merger policy, and it says so explicitly in the press release from June 27, 2007.

Of course, I see that in the face of inevitable proof of such, you have changed the argument to a debate of whether or not the Nic met ALPA merger policy requirements. That, of course, leads us back to the dead horse that we collectively beat to death years ago.

It doesn't, however, change the fact that your assertion is wrong regarding the stance of the east MEC at the time.

 

[767intl]

Here is a little "smart mouthed fact" for you. My w-2 for 2009 said over $168k. Add to that the estimated 30k in health and benifits, and you come up with $198k, an number very close, yet larger than Cleary's $191k lm-2 filing. So there you have it, but I will modify my statement further, "at least one east pilot is making close to what a West captain makes, but he ain't taking it home with him."

I have said many times I hope you win the LOA 93 grievence. That virtually assures seperate ops, no DOH and eventually the Nic, while in the mean time a return to rapid growth of the West. Sincerely, good luck, but I would also say your odds are as Mr. Kirby put it, "what is a number very close to zero." Further, the ridiculous updates usapa has put out on the subject are giving east pilots a very false hope of success. My favorite line was from the guy who made the arguement that (paraphrasing)"when you freeze something it thaws later, you don't expect to put steak in the feezer and later pull out fish". Well, duh...and you should not expect to have "frozen" adjusted pay rates thaw as un-adjusted rates.

Another question. How could the arbitrator "split the baby" on this one. Do you think the arbitrator is going to make up some half way rate that neither side sought, just because you went to the trouble of arbitration?

What's your point? "Your dog's bigger than my dog?" I really don't care what your w-2 was last year. You first argue that Cleary is making too much, then you come back and do a "neener, neener, neener" that you make more than he did. There are a lot of us back here who made more than Cleary and you for that matter. Crowing about it? Again, what's your point? If you don't like what he's making, have one of your ace reps put in a resolution to change his compensation package.

On the "split the baby" issue, you obviously don't know what the different arguments were. One gets a pay restoration, the other allows for past and future increases, or whatever combination of the two. That's it in a sentence. We could win all arguments, some, or none. It's not worth the time explaining it all since it won't affect your pay check at all, but if someone else wants to waste bandwidth, I'll yield to them.

Ames, on 30 August 2010 - 04:49 PM, said:
I'm still not buying the argument. Your MEC, nor your MC, never made such a statement in any formal manner. I understand very well how unions work. Politics, plain and simple. Rather than expeditiously hand over the arbitrator's decision John Prater played politics, commented negatively and held onto the decision. This was in order to placate the east who he was in danger of losing did he not play. Look how well that worked out for him.

Sent to me today by a good friend who keeps really good records:

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE

June 27, 2007

US Airways contact: Capt. Arnie Gentile

Air Line Pilots Assoc., Int’l.

US Airways Pilots Master Executive Council

(518) 424-8433; (412) 264-5600

US Airways Pilots File Suit to Vacate Seniority Arbitration Award

-----------------------------------------------

There. Happy now? The east MEC did indeed hold the opinion that the Nicolau shame did not meet ALPA merger policy, and it says so explicitly in the press release from June 27, 2007.

Of course, I see that in the face of inevitable proof of such, you have changed the argument to a debate of whether or not the Nic met ALPA merger policy requirements. That, of course, leads us back to the dead horse that we collectively beat to death years ago.

It doesn't, however, change the fact that your assertion is wrong regarding the stance of the east MEC at the time.

Or the stance of the East MC. Drvr, it's just a waste of time with Ames. His minds made up, no facts will change that. Even if we were wrong, what's his point? That East pilots liked the NIC, but tossed out ALPa anyway?

His group constantly morphs the argument. When one poster gets overexposed, they find another one. They wander from defending that the NIC met ALPa guidelines, to ALPa followed the ALPa merger policy before, during and/or after, that East pilots are whiners, USAPA is some kind of cancer on the body-politic, to who knows what else. And the threats? We're going to pay Million$, whatnot. Every time we counter their blatant misinformation, they change the "what is-is" debate.

My take, except for providing an accurate certified list to our MC (only ALPa could provide the final list, the MC had no choice on modifying it), ALPa stayed pretty close to the policy prior to the award. But excluding MDA from being active, for all the reasons we've already exhausted, was a major ALPa boo-boo. Your CBA can't tell the group (meaning the East MEC) one week that MDA pilots are active, then present a list where they aren't. By design or accident, they violated their own policy. After the award, ALPa tried to straddle both sides of the fence and fell flat on its butt. They thought they could finesse both pilot groups. They failed and their gone. Pretty much end of story for ALPa on this property, at least for the next 10 years or until cooler heads (both east and west) prevail.

 

[Freighterguynow]

while in the mean time a return to rapid growth of the West.

South West that is ....


Phoenix big winner when Southwest Airlines adjusts schedule in 2011

With the changes, Las Vegas will be the largest airport in Southwest's system, with 213 daily Southwest departures.

http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/bus/stories/DN-swsked_18bus.ART.State.Edition1.26c8224.html

 

[BoeingBoy]

My take, except for providing an accurate certified list to our MC (only ALPa could provide the final list, the MC had no choice on modifying it)

Wrong, at least if you mean ALPA and not the MEC or MC. ALPA merger policy clearly states that each MC is responsible for compiling and verifying the data in their side's seniority list used for seniority integration. Each MC is to use "company payroll records and/or other records as necessary". Maybe it was only coincidence, but the company seniority list showed the MDA pilots as furloughed. It was definitely ironic that the MDA pilots tried to convince the MEC that it might help and couldn't hurt to show them as active mainline pilots, but the MEC turned a deaf ear. It's also ironic that you blame ALPA for the "defective" list when ALPA was the only party that showed the MDA pilots as recalled to mainline - one of the arguments used by the MDA pilots in their effort to convince the MEC/MC that they weren't furloughed.

Every MDA pilot who was shown as furloughed on the East MC's seniority list had the opportunity to protest their data as shown on the updated seniority list developed by the MC - how many did at the time?

Jim

 

[Ames]

Sent to me today by a good friend who keeps really good records:

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE

June 27, 2007

US Airways contact: Capt. Arnie Gentile

Air Line Pilots Assoc., Int’l.

US Airways Pilots Master Executive Council

(518) 424-8433; (412) 264-5600

US Airways Pilots File Suit to Vacate Seniority Arbitration Award



“The US Airways Pilots’ leadership can not and will not sit idly by and permit a seniority integration award, which was conceived outside our national union’s merger policies, to devastate the careers of so many of our pilots. This is not a case of simply being dissatisfied with an arbitrator’s award,” said Captain Jack Stephan, US Airways MEC Chairman. “When we [the US Airways pilots] signed on to arbitration, we fully expected the governing policies to be complied with. They were not, and as a result, the careers of many US Airways pilots are threatened with wholesale destruction.”

As part of the seniority award, the arbitrator transferred over 4,450 Captain flying years, of both narrow-body and wide-body aircraft Captain jobs, from US Airways pilots to America West pilots, which is a blatant violation of ALPA Merger Policy. That policy explicitly directs the arbitrator to avoid granting windfalls to one group at the expense of the other group.

Additionally the award mixes US Airways pilots with approximately 17 years of active service and no furlough time with America West new hires. If allowed to stand, the precedent-setting ramifications of this award will forever negatively affect the Air Line Pilots Association and quite possibly other national unions.

-----------------------------------------------

There. Happy now? The east MEC did indeed hold the opinion that the Nicolau shame did not meet ALPA merger policy, and it says so explicitly in the press release from June 27, 2007.

Of course, I see that in the face of inevitable proof of such, you have changed the argument to a debate of whether or not the Nic met ALPA merger policy requirements. That, of course, leads us back to the dead horse that we collectively beat to death years ago.

It doesn't, however, change the fact that your assertion is wrong regarding the stance of the east MEC at the time.

I was not aware of this. Thanks for enlightening me. What ever became of this lawsuit by the way? I'll bet it went nowhere because the merger policy was followed to a T and they couldn't prove otherwise.

 

[BoeingBoy]

What ever became of this lawsuit by the way? I'll bet it went nowhere because the merger policy was followed to a T and they couldn't prove otherwise.

When the MEC's disappeared with USAPA's election, there was no longer a plaintiff or defendant and the suit was dropped, or that's my understanding. It never made it to trial.

Jim

 

[nycbusdriver]

When the MEC's disappeared with USAPA's election, there was no longer a plaintiff or defendant and the suit was dropped, or that's my understanding. It never made it to trial.

Jim

Wow! This must be our 2010 "agree" post.

 

[nycbusdriver]

I was not aware of this. Thanks for enlightening me. What ever became of this lawsuit by the way? I'll bet it went nowhere because the merger policy was followed to a T and they couldn't prove otherwise.

I would have gladly taken that bet, but BB spilled the beans!

 

[Ames]

When the MEC's disappeared with USAPA's election, there was no longer a plaintiff or defendant and the suit was dropped, or that's my understanding. It never made it to trial.

Jim

Thanks, Jim. Had those changes not happened do you think the lawsuit had merit?