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US Pilots Labor Discussion 8/25- STAY ON TOPIC AND OBSERVE THE RULES

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Another way of defining the situation at UAL and obviously here with the RJ flying is with the term "cabotage"...brought to you by none other than ALPA!!!!
Are you serious? Do you even know what cabotage is???

What on earth does cabotage have to do with domestic RJ traffic or the Aer Lingus deal for that matter?

Are you even an airline employee? You kill your credibility when you say such ignorant things. And by the way, ALPA has been one of the strongest defenders of current cabotage rules, spending many resources lobbying against any attempt to loosen cabotage rules.


It all started with United being the first to allow their regionals to fly jets using Air Wisconsin. Once the door is open it makes it hard for the rest not to follow.

As for Air Wisconsin and RJ flying, again you need to start with some facts before vomiting your concocted assertions onto this forum. Air Wisconsin was an autonomous airline flying their own airplanes. UA actually purchased Air Wisconsin around 1991 or so to capture the flying and slots. This is exactly OPPOSITE from the outsourcing of jet flying we are talking about. In 1993 UA sold Air Wisconsin. By then, Comair had already been flying the CRJ for Delta.

But don't let a small detail like facts get in your way.
 
As for Air Wisconsin and RJ flying, again you need to start with some facts before vomiting your concocted assertions onto this forum. Air Wisconsin was an autonomous airline flying their own airplanes. UA actually purchased Air Wisconsin around 1991 or so to capture the flying and slots. This is exactly OPPOSITE from the outsourcing of jet flying we are talking about. In 1993 UA sold Air Wisconsin. By then, Comair had already been flying the CRJ for Delta.

But don't let a small detail like facts get in your way.

Air Wisconsin Jets at ORD.
 
Are you serious? Do you even know what cabotage is???

What on earth does cabotage have to do with domestic RJ traffic or the Aer Lingus deal for that matter?

Are you even an airline employee? You kill your credibility when you say such ignorant things. And by the way, ALPA has been one of the strongest defenders of current cabotage rules, spending many resources lobbying against any attempt to loosen cabotage rules.




76J and 927PS,

You two neophytes need to think about what the topic was about, what it means to mainline flying and what ALPA was concerned about referencing cabotage. I believed you may have been smart enough and senior enough to understand. I guess I was wrong on both counts!
But for clarification, I wrote that you could define all the RJ flying as cabotage, NOT to be taken in the literal sense, but rather the figurative sense. ALPA's only concern with foreign carriers flying point to point within the U.S. was that it was taking a mainline(at the time, ALPA pilot), job from an ALPA pilot. The government's concerns were something else all together.
RJ flying is doing the same thing. Do you get it now!

Another reason why I'm glad ALPA is no longer on the property here
 
How do you figure? Last I looked a east 75 driver did a lot better than west, then the 330. You guys get paid the same for everything. Add in the 10k coming in Dec, and you don't stack up as good as you think.
I didnt even get into work rules. Comparing an East 757 or 330 to AWA is pathetic. Your East "resolve" is holding EVERY PILOT at US Airways HOSTAGE. Your crusade to evade Binding Arbitration has caused you to keep your eyes off the prize. And Parker says "THANK YOU".

You must enjoy the industry-low wages, keep basking in them...

The majority of the pilots are on Airbus 320's and 737's. But I forgot, USAPA doesn't represent the Majority.

Wheres the new contract?

USAPA = Breaking Campaign Promising Daily

USAPA = Nobody Fails as good as we do !!!
 
The problem with the scope isn't the turboprop flying.

Today it's not the problem. But most of the regional carriers started flying turboprops - that was the camel getting it's nose under the tent. The regional jets were just an extension of that, so saying turboprops don't matter is what got pilots into this position in the first place.

Jim
 
Today it's not the problem. But most of the regional carriers started flying turboprops - that was the camel getting it's nose under the tent. The regional jets were just an extension of that, so saying turboprops don't matter is what got pilots into this position in the first place.

Jim
S\

Sometimes it takes a camels nose under a tent for a call to action. In reference to United Airlines, when they saw the camels nose, they put a bowl full of food under it.
 
Like the other carrier's pilots didn't??? As has already been said, US (then Allegheny) was among the first. Pilots at "real" airlines thought that they were above flying "those little prop airplanes".

Jim
 
Like the other carrier's pilots didn't??? As has already been said, US (then Allegheny) was among the first. Pilots at "real" airlines thought that they were above flying "those little prop airplanes".

Jim

I guess we could go further back than that. A lot of the local service carriers best routes came from the CAB approved transfer of routes from trunk carriers. They didn't want the unprofitable routes. They weren't code share, but joint fares helped keep them as feed. I guess airlines always have, and always will try to farm out marginal flying.

Our own Allegheny was a pioneer in the code share business. The magic spot keeps moving. 19 seats? 30 seats? 50 seats? Just jets? How about a 70 seat turboprop?
 
I guess ...

A pretty good synopsis. There was a time when the local service carriers like Allegheny, Mohawk, Piedmont, etc flew the turboprops and what would today be called "RJ's".

Jim
 
I didnt even get into work rules. Comparing an East 757 or 330 to AWA is pathetic. Your East "resolve" is holding EVERY PILOT at US Airways HOSTAGE. Your crusade to evade Binding Arbitration has caused you to keep your eyes off the prize. And Parker says "THANK YOU".

You must enjoy the industry-low wages, keep basking in them...

The majority of the pilots are on Airbus 320's and 737's. But I forgot, USAPA doesn't represent the Majority.

Wheres the new contract?

USAPA = Breaking Campaign Promising Daily

USAPA = Nobody Fails as good as we do !!!
Please add up what the America West pilots made since 1983 vs what the east pilots have made over the same time period and post me in the morning with your results.

Call it what you would like but the arbitration, bottom line, did not follow ALPA guidelines. We could argue about this all the time like we have, bottom line, see you in court.

The new contract is not there because the company was asked to participate in an NMB sanctioned mediation, they declined. US Airways Rejects Pilots' Proposed NMB-Facilitated Talks.

The West pilots have been suing ever since the USAPA pilot union representing ALL USAirways pilots won a 9th Circuit Court of Appeals ruling.

America West Pilots website.

Frankly, what would you expect of a Union that has management and sore looser former west pilots fighting you every step of the way. USAirways will decide if there is a Happy Holiday for employees and passengers, they will be the cause but act like a victim as USAirways has over the last debacle type holiday situations.
 
Thanks Jim,

You should them that I was correct about how it started. Much obliged.
 
KTM300, notsofast, and others,

Look, we all know that scope (or the lack thereof) is a problem for our industry. It's pathetic that some feel the need to fight and argue even over things we agree on. This is why there is no unity among your 2 groups. IMO it's like you want to fight to the end just to BE right, rather than trying to see and do WHAT"S right. And blaming ALPA for all your problems has practically become a religion or obsession to some of you.

Comair and ASA were flying far more RJ's than anyone else when the shift first started from turboprops to RJ's. As has already been pointed out, the Air Wisconsin thing was an anomaly, and UA actually bought the company to capture the feed and slots, only to sell them off later when they could not resolve contractual commitments with employees, particularly the flight attendants.

It's a moot point to try to assign blame. You might as well "blame" SW pilots for allowing their airline to poach off the fat of our hubs during lean times. You can blame every other airline for ignoring capacity discipline and driving ticket prices down when they should have been going up. We can go in circles forever debating it. But the truth is that pilots in general, ALPA and others, were short sighted at the time and should have captured all jet flying for mainline at all carriers. It was a tiny blip on the radar and we ALL should have taken it more seriously. 9/11, economic meltdown, and bankruptcies only fueled managements ability to gut scope clauses and open the flood gates to outsourcing, fee-for-departure arrangements, and shopping for the lowest bidder.

In fact ALPA is the only one trying to do anything to reverse the trend. What is USAPA doing about it? Delta and UA have/will negotiate contracts that stop further outsourcing, tie regional flying to mainline expansion, and capture large RJ flying in the future. At the regionals, ALPA is attempting to organize pilots across various airlines to negotiate common contracts and rate to put an end to airline's efforts to shop the lowest bidder. I know it's probably too little too late to completely reverse, but at least it is a step in the right direction and will eventually lead to better scope protections for all. ALPA is also lobbying for regulations that will put an end to Aer Lingus type arrangements for good. "Metal in the market" will prevent US airlines from becoming virtual airlines with foreign carriers doing all the international flying.

RJ's were in vogue when jet fuel was relatively cheap and marketing showed that passengers preferred jets. We all know they have nothing to do with efficiency, especially on short routes. The only way regional airlines could lower their costs and bid lower for contracts was to fly longer segments. Suddenly regional jets left the region, which is when we should have started calling them SJ's (small jets) instead of RJ's. Ideally, regional flying should be done by new, advanced, comfortable, turboprops like the Dash Q400. All jet flying should be done by mainline. This would have the added benefit of keeping regional flying at altitudes in the 20's where turboprops are more efficient, helping to relieve some of the air traffic congestion that now exists at the higher flight levels. Of course they haven't made me king yet, so until the entire industry decides to get smart, all we can do is negotiate better contracts and try to reverse the trend.
 
Thanks Jim,

You should them that I was correct about how it started. Much obliged.
I mean really, who even gives a crap about how it started, it was eons ago and you can't change the past. What I do care about is how United/Continental, Delta and American are actively trying in different ways to combat outsourcing and I REALLY REALLY REALLY hope they are sucessful. The million dollar question is are we in talks with the company to do the same, you can't wait til these contracts are up with mesa and republic to start coming up with some sort of plan.
 
I mean really, who even gives a crap about how it started, it was eons ago and you can't change the past. What I do care about is how United/Continental, Delta and American are actively trying in different ways to combat outsourcing and I REALLY REALLY REALLY hope they are sucessful. The million dollar question is are we in talks with the company to do the same, you can't wait til these contracts are up with mesa and republic to start coming up with some sort of plan.

PSW 737

You're right , Mesa's contract is up at the end of the year, we need to return that flying back to mainline protecting our jobs and returning all furloughs back to work. With Continental working on eliminating outsourcing hopefully other airlines will follow.
 
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