US Pilots Labor Discussion 8/25- STAY ON TOPIC AND OBSERVE THE RULES

[Ames]

Oh yes it is.


I suggest you think long and hard about the industry restructuring comment since every transaction approval has come with a divestiture clause lately. How much more so when we are talking 30%+ market share?

Very happy with the exclusive East separate ops.

This attitude will be your demise. Looking forward to it.

 

[Freighterguynow]

What is it they call a comb-over ? Oh yea, a pubic display of denial.

 

[BoeingBoy]

let the Supremes know that
a 17 year never missed a payment from the company or TO his union
was placed behing a 3 month newbie.

As long as you also tell them that the 17 year East pilot had the same seniority as the "newbie" West pilot, and that DOH would staple most West pilots (who were all working at the time of the merger) behind most of the furloughed East pilots (who were NOT working at the time of the merger). I suspect they'd say pretty much the same as in that other case - USAPA can't use the will of the majority to ignore it's DFR responsibilities.

NIC blew it and you don't have the guts to admit
it. Wish I knew what your aganda was or is?????

I've said before that I would have done a couple of thing differently if I'd been in Nicalou's place, but he basically got it right. It's called a seniority integration instead of a DOH integration for a reason.

Gotta love how many East hardliners resort to the "If you don't agree with me something is wrong with you" non-logic...

Jim

 

[BoeingBoy]

One problem among many in your proposal. There are 80 West guys who
can hold 330 now under NIC. Our bottom 330 guy is an 81 hire date.

Because of the 7 A332's maybe? You know, those post merger airplanes that East has now confiscated as it's own, just like the post-merger 757's and E190's.

Jim

 

[Pi brat]

Calling this situation a mere 'disagreement' trivializes it. It is indeed a war. Paraphrasing definition 2a from the Merriam-Webster dictionary, war is state of conflict or antagonism. This qualifies. From the moment the AAA MEC sued the AWA MEC this was escalated beyond a 'disagreement'.
A larger group is trying to use their size to take advantage of a smaller group. The normal channel of conflict resolution (that means arbitration) was discarded and ridiculed. This leaves the West with no option but the legal course we've been engaged in. If justice is achieved the East will not only be found liable in another DFR trial but liable for monetary damages. Still think it's just a 'disagreement'?It's insulting that you give moral equivalence to both sides of this conflict. The idea that binding arbitration isn't binding just because one side doesn't like the result is unjustifiable. This war was started by one side and that side can just as easily end it.

If calling it a disagreement trivializes it, calling a war is a slap in the face to everyone that is or has ever faced bullets, bombs and swords. Whatever.

 

[Pi brat]

Because of the 7 A332's maybe? You know, those post merger airplanes that East has now confiscated as it's own, just like the post-merger 757's and E190's.

Jim

Confiscated? This is like the "war". Did Mike Cleary take his army to Tempe and hold a gun to Parker's head. I thought the company allocated flying, and I believe the 757 and E190 were subject to, what was it, don't tell me, oh yeah........arbitration.

 

[luvn737s]

Nuclear option is availible....attrition on our side ...growth on our side...

I love the "nuclear option" drama. You do, of course, realize the briefcase Mowery carries with the supposed missle codes only has an overripe banana in it.

NMB will never release USAPA for self help. They will park you until you get over yourselves and actually negotiate towards something that won't be stifled by Federal Injunction.

Psst, Mr. Cleary, the folks you are dealing with are a bit brighter than you.

 

[BoeingBoy]

Confiscated? This is like the "war".

War, disagreement, dispute, whatever - I really don't care what anyone calls it. Confiscated as in most East posters consider those additional post-merger jobs as belonging to the East pilots. I defy anyone to find the 7 A332's, 3 757's, and whatever number of E190's that are left anywhere in the transition agreement fleet plan for the East. If they're not there they're fair game for either side - the company can decide to move them or have them flown by either side's pilots (this in addition to the other language about TA, Caribbean, and HI flying).

All of that makes the snide comments about PHX shrinking all the more interesting. With the minimum block hours requirement, shrinkage at PHX will force the company to make block hours available to West pilots in the East bases as long as separate ops exist. Maybe some East posters (not you) should be more careful what they wish for since they may get it...

Jim

 

[Freighterguynow]

With the minimum block hours requirement, shrinkage at PHX will force the company to make block hours available to West pilots in the East bases as long as separate ops exist. Maybe some East posters (not you) should be more careful what they wish for since they may get it...

Jim

While you were in Alaska the company revealed 24% of the West block hours are now being flown on East premerger routes.

 

[aquagreen73s]

That is correct. If USAPA ever changes their stripes and tries to come up with a rational compromise, then the West will face a difficult choice. Dig in for the Nicolau only or move on. Anyone who has ever negotiated anything knows the key is to give the other side a tough choice.

It's not as antiseptic as that, and the reason is that there is no one party that speaks for or binds the West. A compromise can be generated and they could throw it out there and it could even pass with support from the West. But, that scenario doesn't eliminate the factor that is now driving the bus: risk of litigation. Without an agent that speaks solely for the West, there will be a giant unknown whether the actual agent can convince a future tribunal that it acted fairly for all members when it changed the arbitrated agreement. Would the compromise be less harmful to the West as a whole? Probably, but it doesn't change the fact that DFR suits are personal claims. There's already been an arbitrated seniority list and it has never been shown that the East would not vote in the Nic. Arguments for a do-over or some sort of compromise would be bolstered greatly if there were a few votes that went down with the Nic. Without those failed votes, it's impossible to see how a compromise would escape a DFR any more than DOH.

 

[A320 Driver]

War, disagreement, dispute, whatever - I really don't care what anyone calls it. Confiscated as in most East posters consider those additional post-merger jobs as belonging to the East pilots. I defy anyone to find the 7 A332's, 3 757's, and whatever number of E190's that are left anywhere in the transition agreement fleet plan for the East. If they're not there they're fair game for either side - the company can decide to move them or have them flown by either side's pilots (this in addition to the other language about TA, Caribbean, and HI flying).

All of that makes the snide comments about PHX shrinking all the more interesting. With the minimum block hours requirement, shrinkage at PHX will force the company to make block hours available to West pilots in the East bases as long as separate ops exist. Maybe some East posters (not you) should be more careful what they wish for since they may get it...

Jim

Wasn't a grievance filed since the merger over company violation of the minimum block hour requirements? That being the case, I defy anyone to find anything that translates into REAL growth. Aircraft deliveries are NOT growth when you are parking other airplanes (namely 757s, 737s, and a few A-320 family). New cities are NOT growth when you are pulling out of others. Parker has stated many times that he does NOT intend to grow the airline. So, all this BS about aircraft "confiscation" is just that. I understand we just lost 3 more 757s... 1 West and 2 East.


Driver B)

 

[Ames]

War, disagreement, dispute, whatever - I really don't care what anyone calls it. Confiscated as in most East posters consider those additional post-merger jobs as belonging to the East pilots. I defy anyone to find the 7 A332's, 3 757's, and whatever number of E190's that are left anywhere in the transition agreement fleet plan for the East. If they're not there they're fair game for either side - the company can decide to move them or have them flown by either side's pilots (this in addition to the other language about TA, Caribbean, and HI flying).

All of that makes the snide comments about PHX shrinking all the more interesting. With the minimum block hours requirement, shrinkage at PHX will force the company to make block hours available to West pilots in the East bases as long as separate ops exist. Maybe some East posters (not you) should be more careful what they wish for since they may get it...

Jim

This is quite true and if the "snapback arbitration" goes in favor of the east pilots I would anticipate those aircraft heading to the west ops almost overnight. Separate ops = whipsaw, one way or another.

 

[BoeingBoy]

While you were in Alaska the company revealed 24% of the West block hours are now being flown on East premerger routes.

He said what he did long before I went to Alaska, and that's another quote that has changed to fit the argument. What he said was that the West was flying 24% of what could be considered East routes. Have you read his mind to determine what "could be considered East routes" means?

Wasn't a grievance filed since the merger over company violation of the minimum block hour requirements? That being the case, I defy anyone to find anything that translates into REAL growth.

Yes, because the West was below the minimum block hours specified in the transition agreement. To the best of my knowledge the East hasn't been below the minimum block hours since the merger.

"Anything that translates into REAL growth" is irrevalent - the transitiion agreement specifies what is supposed to happen with planes that aren't in either side's fleet plan. Both sides have lost planes and block hours since the merger so what authority does East cite to justify getting the lion's share of new equipment (and all the new block hours until last fall)? What VALID claim does East have to 7 A332's, 3 757's, and 25 E190's (reducing to 15)? East has added about 10% to the fleet plan fleet while West has only added about 3%.

Jim

 

[Ames]

Confiscated? This is like the "war". Did Mike Cleary take his army to Tempe and hold a gun to Parker's head. I thought the company allocated flying, and I believe the 757 and E190 were subject to, what was it, don't tell me, oh yeah........arbitration.

Yes, both aircraft were subject to arbitration and, like all arbitrations east/west, the west did NOT receive what was awarded.

 

[A320 Driver]

He said what he did long before I went to Alaska, and that's another quote that has changed to fit the argument. What he said was that the West was flying 24% of what could be considered East routes. Have you read his mind to determine what "could be considered East routes" means?



Yes, because the West was below the minimum block hours specified in the transition agreement. To the best of my knowledge the East hasn't been below the minimum block hours since the merger.

"Anything that translates into REAL growth" is irrevalent - the transitiion agreement specifies what is supposed to happen with planes that aren't in either side's fleet plan. Both sides have lost planes and block hours since the merger so what authority does East cite to justify getting the lion's share of new equipment (and all the new block hours until last fall)? What VALID claim does East have to 7 A332's, 3 757's, and 25 E190's (reducing to 15)? East has added about 10% to the fleet plan fleet while West has only added about 3%.

Jim

It's Sunday. But only for around 3 more hours...IF you live on the East coast.

I just wanted to say ONE THING that you could agree with.

<_<