US Pilots Labor Discussion 7/13- STAY ON TOPIC AND OBSERVE THE RULES

[cleardirect]

CD...

So lets see if I’ve got this straight about what YOU think is fair… you want us to embrace the NIC (derived by the internal rules and processes of ALPA as a negotiation position) in a proposed contract submitted for pilot ratification, which would effectively forever destroy years of an East pilot’s LOS… AND you also want a much larger pay increase for the West pilots because if everyone is brought up to parity it would naturally result in the West pilots obtaining a lesser increase in pay…. Now how can that be… how is it possible if all are brought up to parity… that the West would get less of an increase????? Hummm… what could it be… just what could it be???….. Do you think just maybe because YOU’VE BEEN RECEIVING MORE PAY FOR THE SAME WORK FOR YEARS…. And based upon many West’s postings… are quite pleased about this disparity?

Sorry to be the messenger of bad news CD… but a windfall is in the eyes of the beholder… and in my opinion… hell will freeze over before what you dream about and demand will occur. I honestly believe USAPA will be as fair as what is required by law in developing a proposed list, but I already know it will be rejected without even the slightest review by you and yours. So we are fully prepared for the frivolous suits to begin again.

No I did not say I wanted a larger pay raise. what I said was that the east says they will not accept a large pay raise and more contract improvements if it contains the Nicolau. But you seem to think that the west will accept a much smaller raise with no other contract improvements with DOH.

What possible reason would the west do that? As you said we are getting paid more than you right now. We have min block hour protection in the T/A. We have work rules that we developed and can live with. A new contract will see a small raise the loss of min block hour protection, east pilots coming to PHX and work rules developed by an old BK carrier. usapa has nothing to offer and still wants to destroy the west careers with DOH.

You are right windfall is in the eye of the beholder. Nicolau the neutral thrid party saw DOH as a windfall for the east.

Frivolous is also in the eye of the beholder. A jury of 9 did not think the DFR was frivolous. A judge in the RICO suit did think that usapa's suit was frivolous. Dismissed with prejudice.

 

[Freighterguynow]

NIC with a few tweaks like I mentioned in a previous post, will be a much easier path to much bigger contract improvements (IMO,) meaning a strike is less likely.

I'd rather keep the Ops Seperate than a contract with the Nic - I'll pass.

 

[LSS]

I'd rather keep the Ops Seperate than a contract with the Nic - I'll pass.

Freighter... I personally was not so severely affected by ALPA's seniority integration proposal AKA the NIC ... but I stand shoulder to shoulder with those who will never allow our pilots to lose their LOS to those with far, far less time in... For me... a better contract means nothing... as all it takes is one trip through BK... and all those improvements go the way of the toilet... a pilot's seniority to me is sacred... and there is NO amount of money that will EVER make me change my mind! It's just that simple!

 

[cleardirect]

Freighter... I personally was not so severely affected by ALPA's seniority integration proposal AKA the NIC ... but I stand shoulder to shoulder with those who will never allow our pilots to lose their LOS to those with far, far less time in... For me... a better contract means nothing... as all it takes is one trip through BK... and all those improvements go the way of the toilet... a pilot's seniority to me is sacred... and there is NO amount of money that will EVER make me change my mind! It's just that simple!

Enjoy LOA 93 until retirement.

you east guys think an entirely different way that I have ever heard of.

 

[Ames]

I do wonder though, had Nic known the furor he would evoke from the East with his award, if he would still be fully convinced that this was the right thing to do, or whether he would put more thought into it.

Just thinking out loud...

Driver B)

Yeah, I'm sure that if you told a respected arbitrator that you would throw a temper tantrum if you didn't get your way he would just have given you your way. This could all be over with if you guys only had a little foresight. Who knew?

Just laughing out loud....

 

[PullUp]

Yeah, I'm sure that if you told a respected arbitrator that you would throw a temper tantrum if you didn't get your way he would just have given you your way. This could all be over with if you guys only had a little foresight. Who knew?

Just laughing out loud....

If you want to go back to the 'origin', this thing should have been worked out - seniority AND contract - before the merger consummation.
But you are absolutely correct: "who knew"? and "who would have thought...?"
Have a great day.

 

[Ames]

While DFR II is inevitable, I find it extremely doubtful that any court would slap an injunction on the entire contract when only one section was the basis of the DFR lawsuit. Section 22 will be litigated, but unless someone wants to file a DFR on pay rates, scheduling, training, vacation, etc., those sections will be in effect.


NYCBusdriver
"Piedmont1979"

This whole stalemate revolves around the fact that a new seniority list cannot be implemented without a combined contract. Otherwise the Nicolau list would have been implemented on the day that Parker accepted the list. Do you care to rethink the above statement?

 

[Ames]

I disagree. I think with a little incentive and a little tweaking of Section 22 language, the MAJORITY of PHX pilots can be persuaded to move off the Nic.

Wrong! We on the west are well entrenched on the Nic. We spent over a million dollars of our money following the ALPA merger policy which resulted in the Nic. We are all well aware that an arbitration is never overturned. We furthermore spent another million dollars of our own money trying to get recalcitrant children to honor their agreements.

I think that "a little incentive and a little tweaking of Section 22 language" will further entrench the MAJORITY of PHX pilots against you. For three years now the east has been saying: "our seniority is not for sale". Guess what, neither is ours.

We did the right thing from the very beginning. Sticking with that is the only option.

 

[PullUp]

Wrong! We on the west are well entrenched on the Nic. We spent over a million dollars of our money following the ALPA merger policy which resulted in the Nic. We are all well aware that an arbitration is never overturned. We furthermore spent another million dollars of our own money trying to get recalcitrant children to honor their agreements.

I think that "a little incentive and a little tweaking of Section 22 language" will further entrench the MAJORITY of PHX pilots against you. For three years now the east has been saying: "our seniority is not for sale". Guess what, neither is ours.

We did the right thing from the very beginning. Sticking with that is the only option.

That pretty much defines the entrenched positions each side have taken. No solutions, though.
Anybody have any?
Pretty useless to just restate the problem over and over and not offer solutions...
Someday, somewhere, the pilot group will have to put this thing to bed - somehow.
Meantime, Mr. CEO is putting your contract improvements in his pockets while patting you on the back for doing such a good job but saying, unfortunately he can't pay you more without that new contract.
Sad times, they are.

 

[Ames]

What a joke, you can't represent people when they are committed to ruin there own union, Cactus 18 ring a bell, feces being sent in the mail, phone lines jammed. Get real dude!!!!!

OK. Even if the Cactus 18 was guilty of all mentioned "crimes" usapa still has the obligation to represent them fairly - not to mention the other 1,732 west pilots who committed no "crimes".

 

[Ames]

That pretty much defines the entrenched positions each side have taken. No solutions, though.
Anybody have any?
Pretty useless to just restate the problem over and over and not offer solutions...
Someday, somewhere, the pilot group will have to put this thing to bed - somehow.
Meantime, Mr. CEO is putting your contract improvements in his pockets while patting you on the back for doing such a good job but saying, unfortunately he can't pay you more without that new contract.
Sad times, they are.

The solution is ultimately in the hands of Doug Parker. When it benefits him to get this thing done he will do so. I believe that once the busy season is over he will tell usapa that he has already accepted the Nicolau list and that his hands are tied. Once again, after the busy season, as he is aware that the east will throw a tantrum and he will hope to mitigate the affect.

Once Parker makes that simple statement we will move on. It's that simple.

 

[Phoenix]

....

Once Parker makes that simple statement we will move on. It's that simple.

That's simple. Give him a call and let him know he is holding things up.

 

[luvn737s]

If you don't believe me, please contact Rob Streble at the USAPA office. As Sec/Treas, he will give you exact figures.

How many furloughed pilots have been having USAPA (iow, the east and west pilots) pay for their medical insurance through assessment while they have been at other flying jobs? There seems to be no accountability from USAPA on this. Maybe the assessment will continue even after all the furloughed pilots are recalled.

A slush fund doesn't fill itself!

 

[luvn737s]

First, the west has been operating at a pay premium versus the east for a while now after rejecting the notion of parity.

Remember, if you will, that the east rejected supporting the west's contractual right to open section 6 negotiations prior to the west's pulling support for parity.

You will find that the west has a very long and very clear memory of when it has been skeerewed and by whom.

 

[Phoenix]

The solution is ultimately in the hands of Doug Parker. When it benefits him to get this thing done he will do so. I believe that once the busy season is over he will tell usapa that he has already accepted the Nicolau list and that his hands are tied. Once again, after the busy season, as he is aware that the east will throw a tantrum and he will hope to mitigate the affect.

Once Parker makes that simple statement we will move on. It's that simple.

...

You will find that the west has a very long and very clear memory of when it has been skeerewed and by whom.

A very long and clear memory.. I would guess so. If Doug Parker had just stepped up to the plate, like Ames says, you wouldn't be skeerewed out of of $2Mil.