US Pilots Labor Discussion 6/29- STAY ON TOPIC AND OBSERVE THE RULES

[767jetz]

FWIW, I don't expect any West pilot to make up for my stagnant career! They should not pay for our stagnation on the East. On the other hand, they should not benefit from it either. NIC handed them our attrition without any protection for it. In this regard the West climbs over the East. BTW, I also don't believe any West Captain should lose his seat to an East pilot. Protections should have been/should be built to preserve the number of West pilots holding Captian in any scenario.

So are you saying that if protections were put in to protect any attrition from the left seat that was above and beyond the west's attrition, plus protections for the number of captain seats that both sides brought to the merger, then you'd be OK with the Nic?

I asked this last week but never received a response from anyone. Would Nic be palatable with those protections you mentioned? It sounds like it would since you say that the west should not pay for your stagnation. That would be a much different (more reasonable) stance than the strict DOH crowd.

 

[nic4us]

I've heard this but never seen it published. Do you know where I can find it as I would like to see their assumptions. I find it hard to believe, although the initial 1.5 year might be right. The reason I question it is because a good friend was hired mid 87. He was hired young and if the company stayed around would retire at about #3 on the list. That's not too shabby, but under Nic he will be 500+, a range that never allows him much use of the widebody fleet, if it stays around the current size. That's a big hit, plus factor in the delay not only in upgrading, but holding a line, etc. PSA PHX and it would be even worse for someone who has given up a tremendous amount to keep this outfit afloat. That doesn't mean that DOH doesn't turn around and do the same to someone on the west.

I will go looking for it. I do not remember if it was from the original mediation or arbitration, but I believe it came up again at the trial.

The story of your friend hired in 87 sounds pretty accurate. A mid 87 hire would have had about 1200/1300 West pilots in front of them and going on that I would think if your friend was born in say '62 timeframe around 800/900 of those West pilots would retire before him.

However, if he is determining that status with that computer program that was going around when the Nic came out, I would caution that when I put in my info, it kicked out some erroneous data. It said I would retire with a lower number with the Nic, than the stand alone AWA, an absolute impossibility.

 

[MUTATIS MUTANDIS]

You'll have to refresh my memory - where in the Nic does it say that east pilots don't move up when there's attrition? If you're talking about "making captain", the east attrition from the captain ranks relative to the west is about the same as the east share of attrition movement with Nic - 2/3 east, 1/3 west.



I know - the tired "DOH = Seniority" thing. Tell that to Benz who's not as senior after 23 years (18 at the time of the merger) as a west pilot with 10 years at the time of the mer

So you want to take his/her seniority for your benefit. Like I said, climbing over the west guys/gals to make up for your pre-merger stagnant career. Let me guess - recalled because of the merger and now want to take a west captain's job. You take a big jump in seniority and the west captain becomes you furlough fodder. There's your DOH windfall...

Jim

Climbing over guys? word up JIM , NEVER FURLOUGHED! MM! EXCUSE ME taking advantage of ONES OWN GROUPS ATTRITION , is not stepping over anyone on the WEST!

 

[Ames]

As I stated earlier, I've read ALL the arguments, explanations and rationalizations that allege to explain how the nic is "fair" and I WILL NOT be convinced of such. 15 years is 15 years. It's utter madness to think that this would go over without all hell breaking loose.

Personally, I think it's a moot point anyway. I have no doubt that whatever USAPA comes up with on the integration will be challenged by the Westie hardliners. I also believe that those challenges will likely fail, especially if the only thing that will satisfy them is the nic. My guess is that USAPA will end up "splitting the baby" in some fashion on the 2 extreme positions (straight DOH vs nic) and this it will make a successful challenge on the basis of "unfairness" extremely difficult - ESPECIALLY if it is already voted into a contract. MY gut tells me the nic is dead. I guess we'll see in the coming months/years.

The whole argument is whether usapa has the right to negotiate the Nicolau. Even if the en banc challenge fails once usapa negotiates off of the Nicolau the DFR becomes ripe. You shouldn't be so confident that the west challenges will fail. This isn't a "I have more years than you" argument, it's duty of fair representation and that has already been proven via usapa's intent. Once they act....ripe.

BoeingBoy gave a very articulate explanation of the fairness of the Nicolau decision. It is just too bad that you can't see beyond your years of service to realize this. Secondarily, you boys entered arbitration with your eyes open. Your merger chairman boldly told the west chairman that he would have to accept whatever the arbitrator decided, like it or not. Do you honestlly think that the court system would jeapordize arbitrations past and future by giving the east its way? On another note you speak of "westie hard liners" as if they are insignificant. We are ALL hardliners and not likely to give in to any east demands. We will, however, abide by whatever "final and binding" decision results from the court.

 

[nic4us]

Climbing over guys? word up JIM , NEVER FURLOUGHED! MM! EXCUSE ME taking advantage of ONES OWN GROUPS ATTRITION , is not stepping over anyone on the WEST!

EXCUSE ME you already took advantage of your projected attrition during the arbitration. STEALING WEST SENIORITY TO FAVOR YOUR GROUP is contrary to federal law.

If you did not have that projected attrition, Nic would have not given you guys the great deal he did.

He probably would have put Monda about 517 numbers junior to Odell, and all the MDA furloughs would have found themselves in the same status they had on the day of the merger furloughed.

 

[Ames]

Benz,

Before the merger was announced, did you have a plan B? I mean, after 15 years still being bottom reserve it must have crossed your mind to try something different, right? Or maybe I'm wrong. Before AWA came into the picture, when US was in BK2, did you really honestly think at that moment that everything would be fine and you'd be captain again in a few years? This is an honest question, No sarcasm intended. Because if I were in those shoes I certainly would have been worried and making alternate plans. Heck I would have done that during BK1. (In fact I did during UA's BK)

The reason I'm asking this is because your 15 years served, to get nothing but junior reserve is a crying shame and you must have had alot of negative feeling toward your company and it's management. (Rightfully so) Just wondering why it is that all of a sudden that frustration is directed at Nic and the West, or so it seems. The west had a career path as well, and it's not their fault that it was so divergent from yours.

Good post.

 

[oldiebutgoody]

The whole argument is whether usapa has the right to negotiate the Nicolau. Even if the en banc challenge fails once usapa negotiates off of the Nicolau the DFR becomes ripe. You shouldn't be so confident that the west challenges will fail. This isn't a "I have more years than you" argument, it's duty of fair representation and that has already been proven via usapa's intent. Once they act....ripe.

BoeingBoy gave a very articulate explanation of the fairness of the Nicolau decision. It is just too bad that you can't see beyond your years of service to realize this. Secondarily, you boys entered arbitration with your eyes open. Your merger chairman boldly told the west chairman that he would have to accept whatever the arbitrator decided, like it or not. Do you honestlly think that the court system would jeapordize arbitrations past and future by giving the east its way? On another note you speak of "westie hard liners" as if they are insignificant. We are ALL hardliners and not likely to give in to any east demands. We will, however, abide by whatever "final and binding" decision results from the court.

It doesn't matter, because the NIC is dead!

 

[MUTATIS MUTANDIS]

EXCUSE ME you already took advantage of your projected attrition during the arbitration. STEALING WEST SENIORITY TO FAVOR YOUR GROUP is contrary to federal law.

If you did not have that projected attrition, Nic would have not given you guys the great deal he did.

He probably would have put Monda about 517 numbers junior to Odell, and all the MDA furloughs would have found themselves in the same status they had on the day of the merger furloughed.

Took advantage of your projected attrition? Seperate doesn't take advantage of WEST attrition , When was your last bid or retirements, seems like your the one that wants the fence jumping, BTW AMES is correct, the NIC is not on trial, TASHIMA and GRABER recognized the big PICTURE, BYBEE saw your desert judge and took everything in his courtroom at face value, alas INTERNAL UNION DISPUTE, NIC a bargaining proposal that would never pass! MM! Just like the corp accepting 500 per hour payrates it would NEVER FLY! But feel free to contribute!

 

[BoeingBoy]

The problem is TIME!

In more ways than one, which is all the east wants to include not. At the time of the merger, if there hadn't been a merger all you say about the upward movement from attrition meant nothing for US was on the verge of having to liquidate. Now that the merger has happened, new airplanes have arrived, and things look good you don't want to ignore that moment in time and concentrate on this moment in time.

FWIW, I don't expect any West pilot to make up for my stagnant career! They should not pay for our stagnation on the East. On the other hand, they should not benefit from it either. NIC handed them our attrition without any protection for it.

First, what you say you don't expect the west to pay for is exactly what your "it's the only fair way" DOH would have them pay for. You can't have DOH without taking seniority from the west pilots, so either admit what DOH will do or don't insist on DOH.

Second, there is a built in fence preserving about 2/3 of the total attrition (both sides) for east pilots. The way the pilots were integrated by ratios guarantees that.

As for...... "Exactly why do you believe that that 15 years was worth nothing? It was worth as much per the Nic list as it was the day before the merger on the east list.". Well, you said it yourself......As per NIC it was worth NOTHING!

First, that's not what I said. I said that the time at pre-merger US was worth what it got an east pilot as of the day before the merger. You and Benz characterized it as "NOTHING". So are you agreeing that the 5, 10, 15 years from DOH was worth nothing without the merger while claiming it was worth more the day after the merger than a west captain had?

You know Jim, when I first started reading these boards I valued what you had to say. You appeared to have a good handle on many issues and spoke with what appeared to be some authority. But now......What happened man? I pretty much disregard your posts these days. They generally contain nothing but thinly veiled venom and disregard for your fellow East pilots. Shameful really.

And end with the usual attack of those who dare to disagree with the east mantra...

FWIW, if the roles were reversed - the east was the smaller group who moved up faster while the west was the larger group that had stagnated for over 15 years - I'd still think FOH was an unfair starting point for integrating seniority. I have no doubt that a lot of east pilots would have a different opinion of how "fair" DOH is if the roles were reversed.

Jim

 

[Metroyet]

That assumption.......DIDN'T HAPPEN!

And FYI, your assumption that the NIC is the list.......WON'T HAPPEN EITHER!

You've missed the point entirely. The Assumption does matter. The ONLY reason the East didn't vaporize is the fact this merger happened. Nic. understood that and weighted his decision appropriately...Wake understood it Clearly as well...so did the Jury.

So you see, the fact that it didn't Actually happen, is irrelevant. The assumption was based on fact and decisions were made accordingly. Nothing has changed. Ratify your DOH list and see what happens. You trust Seham don't you? Go ahead. Do it.

 

[BoeingBoy]

word up JIM , NEVER FURLOUGHED!

I'm sure you won't mind if I take your words with the same doubt about accuracy as you do mine...

Jim

 

[MUTATIS MUTANDIS]

You've missed the point entirely. The Assumption does matter. The ONLY reason the East didn't vaporize is the fact this merger happened. Nic. understood that and weighted his decision appropriately...Wake understood it Clearly as well...so did the Jury.

So you see, the fact that it didn't Actually happen, is irrelevant. The assumption was based on fact and decisions were made accordingly. Nothing has changed. Ratify your DOH list and see what happens. You trust Seham don't you? Go ahead. Do it. OKAY they win the payrate grievence, MDA, more money from the PBGC, with a pending fragmentation and attrition ramping up , their urgency is what? MM! Take a seat were going to overtime!

 

[MUTATIS MUTANDIS]

I'm sure you won't mind if I take your words with the same doubt about accuracy as you do mine...

Jim
A GIVEN! But do yourself a favor EAST LIST/ WEST LIST/ USAPA WEBSITE'''''''TAKE THE NIC LIST START IN 83 then imagine they close PHX or as you say OPEN BID, compare guys with IDENTICAL DOH's you might be surprised, THOMAS was a doubter! MM!

 

[Phoenix]

The whole argument is whether usapa has the right to negotiate the Nicolau. ..

In addition to the question of ripeness, the 9th made it very clear that the Nic is not the standard of fair representation (which will come in handy when the DFR suit is filed again).

.. Even if the en banc challenge fails once usapa negotiates off of the Nicolau the DFR becomes ripe. ...

Actually the 9th indicated there is no ripeness until a new contract is ratified (ie. the USAPA internal union process is complete, of which Nic is not a part).

 

[nic4us]

On another note you speak of "westie hard liners" as if they are insignificant. We are ALL hardliners and not likely to give in to any east demands. We will, however, abide by whatever "final and binding" decision results from the court.

I caught that also. But could not tell from his post if by "Westie hardliners" he meant all West pilots are "hardliners" or that there was some sub group of "Westies" that are "hardliners".

I figured it really does not matter. It only takes one "hardliner" and usapa can kiss their DOH scandal goodbye. But since we are talking about it, I would place the number of "Westie hardliners" at around 1700 out of 1884.