US Pilots Labor Discussion 6/20- STAY ON TOPIC AND OBSERVE THE RULES

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Just think of all the money that would have been saved and earned if the east lived up to their contracts instead of coming up with elaborate schemes to renege. I mean c'mon, electing a fake union and all.

No arguement from me, the case was not ripe, unless of course AOL is granted an en banc hearing, then ripeness will still be for a time undetermined.

As I said, we owe your desert judge big time. He cost you million$. Now you got to raise money to pay off your current debt, then raise more to pay for your next loser.

coming up with elaborate schemes to reneg?

There you go again. The tired old ALPA East MEC/USAPA conspiracy theory. Filed by Jacob on june 11th. You couldn't even file it as a "motion." You filed it as a "Petition for Clarification FRAP Rule 40."

The Ninth made it clear "any contract USAPA could negotiate would undoubtedly be rejected by its membership" if it included the NIC.


Now, even though you lost, you're asking the Ninth to give you a shot at damages, even though you LOST! "The named plaintiffs file the Petition, pursuant to FRAP 40, for clarification as to whether the Court intended to dismiss those claims as well." The "Background" section tries to resurrect your tired old East MEC/USAPA conspiracy theory. "Had the East MEC not done so (pulled out of negotiations), the JNC would have completed negotiation of a single CBA well-before October 2008 and that the CBA would have been a CBA that used the Nicolau Award Seniority List...Plaintiffs would not have been furloughed or lost Captain opportunities. Withdrawal of the East JNC representatives, therefore, was a substantial part of the but-for cause of Plaintiffs' injuries...The nature of the damages claims does not raise any ripeness concerns.."

B. Ripeness analysis does not consider merits.
C. The Court cannot decide the merits of the damages claims on this appeal
D. The Court should avoid a ruling that would make the damages both too early and too late.
IV Conclusion - The named plaintiffs respectfully request that the Court give further consideration to the status of their damages claims -


Nic4, Are you serious? What part of you lost are you missing? What part of no ripeness, no way to judge damages? I bet the Ninth gets a kick out of your "clarification."



BTW I ran across one of your experienced crew here in PHX the other day. They tried turning down the wrong taxiway before ground had to correct them.

That kind of insult has what to do with what?


That's correct. ALPA is a POLITICAL organization, worried more about their cushy jobs and well funded retirements than representing ANYBODY.

They better start worrying about whether they'll survive financially. ALPA's last-ditch attempt to get Bensel V ALPA (TWA pilots) tossed out on summary judgement failed. Judge Irenas ruled the case will go to court, jury trial. They're in depositions now. A key player in this for ALPA turns out to be an ALPA communications staffer named Ron Rindfleisch, title, "New Members Liaison." Things are tough for ALPA. In the court documents:

"ALPA denies Rindfleisch corresponded with the American pilots regularly, stating that he simple received a lot of emails from them. As Rindfleisch's emails were unable to be retrieved by the time ALPA acknowledged its duty to preserve his electronic correspondence, Plaintiffs are unable to confirm directly that he actively corresponded with the two (AMR) pilots. But there is circumstantial evidence which indicated that he did...As of now, Plaintiffs can identify over 150 known emails between American pilots and executives of ALPA (including Rindfleisch) between January 1, 2001 and April of 2002. From these facts, the Court draws an inference favorable to the Plaintiffs and for the purposes of this Motion accepts as true that Rindfleisch corresponded frequently with the American pilots."

Ouch!
 
So now stating a fact you consider an insult. The guy messed up we all do it. But you don't even have the integrity to admit when one of your own makes a mistake.
So, if "we all do it" is your argument, then why did you bring it up at all? Sounds like the level of maturity here should have preceded it with "Na na Na na Na na"

You should know, as well, that corrections by controllers are commonplace. What is NOT is apologizing profusely over a radio frequency. No one owes YOU that.
 
So, if "we all do it" is your argument, then why did you bring it up at all? Sounds like the level of maturity here should have proceded it with "Na na Na na Na na"

You should know, as well, that corrections by controllers are commonplace. What is NOT is apologizing profusely over a radio frequency. No one owes YOU that.


Now their grasping at straws. The Ninth said there was no chance a NIC contract would have passed under USAPA. AOL is saying, well, maybe not under USAPA, but it would have passed under ALPA/JNC!

"Had the East MEC not done so (pulled out of negotiations), the JNC would have completed negotiations of a single CBA well-before October 2008 and that CBA would have been a CBA that used the Nicolau Award seniority list."

Dreaming to the end!
 
So now stating a fact you consider an insult. The guy messed up we all do it. But you don't even have the integrity to admit when one of your own makes a mistake.
You guys throw that integrity thing around on a regular basis. What does a guy making wrong turn on a taxiway have to do with integrity? And why don't you post the tower transcript so we can verify it actually happened.
 
Now their grasping at straws. The Ninth said there was no chance a NIC contract would have passed under USAPA. AOL is saying, well, maybe not under USAPA, but it would have passed under ALPA/JNC!

"Had the East MEC not done so (pulled out of negotiations), the JNC would have completed negotiations of a single CBA well-before October 2008 and that CBA would have been a CBA that used the Nicolau Award seniority list."

Dreaming to the end!
Just kinda wish they would take their toys and go home. I get TIRED of reading the same ol' nonproductive drivel over and over. The NIC is dead. Time to move on with a fair system.

Here's my thoughts on ALPA's DFR situation: If they had established a soild, fair merger policy, something like DOH or LOS with some minor modifications depending on the situation, they wouldn't be in the situation they're in right now. It's all the fault of the "me, me,me" crowd.

Anybody that thinks that the company is not going to shrink after a merger does not understand business OR history. That's one reason why condition of the companies before a merger announcement should NOT even figure into the formula. For another thing, the company which is doing the acquiring obviously saw value in the acquired company, not necessarily the other way around.
 
Now their grasping at straws. The Ninth said there was no chance a NIC contract would have passed under USAPA. AOL is saying, well, maybe not under USAPA, but it would have passed under ALPA/JNC!

"Had the East MEC not done so (pulled out of negotiations), the JNC would have completed negotiations of a single CBA well-before October 2008 and that CBA would have been a CBA that used the Nicolau Award seniority list."

Dreaming to the end!
Sounds like they should have sued ALPA, not USAPA. That case would have been ripe!
 
Sounds like they should have sued ALPA, not USAPA. That case would have been ripe!
Who do you have to convince that the EAST in a DUAL ratification situation would have ratified! PLZ, what braintrust would even try to sell that argument, sounds more like a twilight zone episode! MM!
 
Who do you have to convince that the EAST in a DUAL ratification situation would have ratified! PLZ, what braintrust would even try to sell that argument, sounds more like a twilight zone episode! MM!
The judges at the Ninth were convinced that the NIC would not have been ratified. That's all anybody needs to know.
 
Just kinda wish they would take their toys and go home. I get TIRED of reading the same ol' nonproductive drivel over and over. The NIC is dead. Time to move on with a fair system.

Here's my thoughts on ALPA's DFR situation: If they had established a soild, fair merger policy, something like DOH or LOS with some minor modifications depending on the situation, they wouldn't be in the situation they're in right now. It's all the fault of the "me, me,me" crowd.

Anybody that thinks that the company is not going to shrink after a merger does not understand business OR history. That's one reason why condition of the companies before a merger announcement should NOT even figure into the formula. For another thing, the company which is doing the acquiring obviously saw value in the acquired company, not necessarily the other way around.
And we all know which territory is headed for the downsizing if not closure! MM!
 
You guys throw that integrity thing around on a regular basis. What does a guy making wrong turn on a taxiway have to do with integrity? And why don't you post the tower transcript so we can verify it actually happened.
Sorry west. You know I'm one of your biggest supporters around here. But I have to agree with the east on this. Throwing things like this into the conversation is pointless. It's a low blow and only serves to make you look bad. Things like that happen to everyone. No one knows the details. Let it go. Stick with facts about the seniority integration.
 
For another thing, the company which is doing the acquiring obviously saw value in the acquired company, not necessarily the other way around.
Oh, come on. Are you kidding? I'm waving the BS flag!

Yes, the company doing the acquiring sees value, as in increased passenger volume, economies of scale, synergies, etc. BUT, the company being acquired absolutely sees value, as in not liquidating, being able to obtain exit financing, live to fight another day, avoid massive layoffs, etc. Let's be fair about this. It's mutually beneficial.
 
Anybody that thinks that the company is not going to shrink after a merger does not understand business OR history. That's one reason why condition of the companies before a merger announcement should NOT even figure into the formula. For another thing, the company which is doing the acquiring obviously saw value in the acquired company, not necessarily the other way around.

Latest crew news DP says pilot recalls more likely than not by the end of the year. 2nd Qtr will be profitable!
 
The NIC is dead. Time to move on with a fair system.

The Nic isn't any more alive or dead than DOH or any other scheme. This is called a stalemate. AOL is going to keep their powder dry. You have never been further away from getting an improved contract than you are at this moment in time. The 9th completely failed ALL US Air pilots by not ruling on any substantive aspect of the case. "too soon" isn't much guidance going forward. We all know how it ended in the lower court when ripeness wasn't an issue. I have no reason to believe next time would be any different.

Back to square 1.

If the company ever accepts a list other than the one they have already accepted as per their legal requirement of the TA, AOL will file suit the next day. USAPA is right where they've always been. Pinned. There really is nothing more to discuss here until something happens to move this process in some direction. I have no idea where that force will come from...it may not. A new contract and a combined list might be 15+ years away...thus making USAPA the most damaging force to piloting careers ever conceived of If you thought Wolf, Gangwal, Segal, Parker, was detrimental to your Career, Combined, they couldn't have brought as much financial Destruction to the pilots of US Airways than the Bradford, King, Theuer group has. It's like the oil leak, money is flowing away daily with no stopping it.

There is no moving on to a "fair" system because the West has absolutely no requirement to allow the East to decide for them what "fair" is. The West is NEVER going to cease the litigation. We all know the story.

Any discussion regarding a combined list at this point is meaningless. At last, I have better things to do than this.
 
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