US Pilots Labor Discussion 6/20- STAY ON TOPIC AND OBSERVE THE RULES

[MUTATIS MUTANDIS]

Oh, come on. Are you kidding? I'm waving the BS flag!

Yes, the company doing the acquiring sees value, as in increased passenger volume, economies of scale, synergies, etc. BUT, the company being acquired absolutely sees value, as in not liquidating, being able to obtain exit financing, live to fight another day, avoid massive layoffs, etc. Let's be fair about this. It's mutually beneficial.

Talk about the BS flag can anyone say, ZANZIBAR, you may want to educate your little friend! MM! AND that flowing money thing like I said TUPPERWARE would be your better option , NIC DOA, I would start studying the fragmentation policy of the WEST contract! MM!

 

[Phoenix]

....
If the company ever accepts a list other than the one they have already accepted as per their legal requirement of the TA, AOL will file suit the next day. ..

Open the hole and pour the money faster. Cast a few handfuls of salt over your shoulder and say a couple spells while you are at it.

.... A new contract and a combined list might be 15+ years away...thus making USAPA the most damaging force to piloting careers ever conceived of ....

So in fifteen years you'll have another ripe opportunity to do a rain dance. We can hardly wait. Why wait... you could spend $2M now.. it would be oh so entertaining.

 

[CallawayGolf]

The judges at the Ninth were convinced that the NIC would not have been ratified. That's all anybody needs to know.

Ah yes, liberal-biased, revisionist judges on the 9th acting as prescient prognosticators rather than objectively evaluating the facts of the case. Wake got it right and Bybee obviously wrote or dictated his own dissenting opinion, which was excellent and showed a firm grasp of the rule of law. My guess is that Tashima and Graber told their staffers that they were going to rule the case not to be ripe and that the staffers needed to cite various ripeness doctrines to support their pre-determined views.

USAPA is in the same exact spot they were the day they became the CBA. A stalemate is the best and only victory they can hope for. DOH has even less of a shot of becoming the seniority system than the NIC. All the 9th did was to ensure that LOA93 is here to stay until self-help arrives many years from now.

 

[oldiebutgoody]

Ah yes, liberal-biased, revisionist judges on the 9th acting as prescient prognosticators rather than objectively evaluating the facts of the case. Wake got it right and Bybee obviously wrote or dictated his own dissenting opinion, which was excellent and showed a firm grasp of the rule of law. My guess is that Tashima and Graber told their staffers that they were going to rule the case not to be ripe and that the staffers needed to cite various ripeness doctrines to support their pre-determined views.

USAPA is in the same exact spot they were the day they became the CBA. A stalemate is the best and only victory they can hope for. DOH has even less of a shot of becoming the seniority system than the NIC. All the 9th did was to ensure that LOA93 is here to stay until self-help arrives many years from now.

I think that you can look at the EVP election numbers if you really want to see what kind of margin a DOH/LOS contract will be ratified by.

Complain all you want. You lost. Justice prevails.

 

[oldiebutgoody]

Latest crew news DP says pilot recalls more likely than not by the end of the year. 2nd Qtr will be profitable!

I hope you are correct. That would be great news! I wasn't saying that we were going to shrink more than we already have, but it's irrefutable that airlines, once they merge, shrink. ALWAYS. Doesn't matter what kind of BS management tellls the employees to keep them happy. It happens EVERY TIME. It's gonna happen at UAL/CAL, too, if it gets approved (I have my doubts).

 

[oldiebutgoody]

Oh, come on. Are you kidding? I'm waving the BS flag!

Yes, the company doing the acquiring sees value, as in increased passenger volume, economies of scale, synergies, etc. BUT, the company being acquired absolutely sees value, as in not liquidating, being able to obtain exit financing, live to fight another day, avoid massive layoffs, etc. Let's be fair about this. It's mutually beneficial.

A lotta big IFs in that statement. I'll bet U was no closer to liquidating than Spirit was when the pilots went on strike. I read all the sob stories about how the pilots were going to cause Spirit to collapse, liquidate, implode, {fill in action verb}, etc. You know what? It didn't happen. One thing ALPA was good at, though, was painting things in the most negative light possible.

Since in the AWE/U merger neither company was really the "acquirer", it doesn't really pertain. It would have if LCC had managed to buy DAL (yea, that would have worked), and it will for UAL/CAL.

 

[CallawayGolf]

I think that you can look at the EVP election numbers if you really want to see what kind of margin a DOH/LOS contract will be ratified by.

Complain all you want. You lost. Justice prevails.

I'm sure the east pilots are emboldened by this false victory and, given the outcome, I'm also sure the ratios of the EVP election would hold true if DOH were contained in a future TA. Getting east pilots to vote in the affirmative for a DOH contract should be relatively easy. Getting the company to agree to a DOH seniority system is the impossible nut to crack.

When should we expect to see that DOH TA? A few weeks? A few months? A few years? Post retirement?

In our nation of situational ethics - justice, like the rule of law, is apparently in the eye of the beholder.

 

[CallawayGolf]

Let’s talk winners and losers in all of this post 9th circuit ruling post-mortem
Seham & Jacobs: A+.

Win, lose or draw this case yielded some nice financial rewards for our two litigators.​

Tashima & Graber : A-

For supporting big-labor consistent with their liberal biases and hopes for even higher career aspirations. No integrity or commitment to the rule of law but still big winners.​

Wake & Bybee: B+

For actually looking at the merits of the case and accurately citing the rule of law. I’m sure they will have many opportunities to be in disagreement with the most liberal and most overturned court in the land.​

US Management: B

While Parker and co would certainly like to get to a single CBA, they would probably take the current situation as a gift rather than coughing up hundreds of millions in higher wages from a truly unified pilot group.​

USAPA: B-

For taking the shot to appeal to the 9th. My guess is that they would have been on life support if they had lost yet again and the majority of all US pilots would have been looking for a way to dump them and fast.​

US Pilots – East & West: F

With all of the winners on the above list, someone has got to go into the loser column. East is paying for a castrated, more losses than wins union on bankruptcy wages that will be the norm for a long time to come. The west is paying a union that fully intends to disadvantage them at every turn all the while also paying for justice to finally win the day, but the political agendas of liberal judges care nothing about seeing justice served.​

I fail to see how this underpaid and hyper-expensive stalemate is preferable to being unrepresented, at-will pilots.

 

[oldiebutgoody]

...Getting the company to agree to a DOH seniority system is the impossible nut to crack.

Keep telling yourself that if it helps you sleep nights. The company doesn't care what USAPA comes up with, as long as it meets their requirements (basically, that it doesn't cost them money).

I know you think that the company LOVES the West guys and HATES the East guys, but I assure you they aren't benevolent enough to LOVE anybody.

They hate everyone equally.

 

[oldiebutgoody]

Let’s talk winners and losers in all of this post 9th circuit ruling post-mortem
Seham & Jacobs: A+.

Win, lose or draw this case yielded some nice financial rewards for our two litigators.​

Tashima & Graber : A-

For supporting big-labor consistent with their liberal biases and hopes for even higher career aspirations. No integrity or commitment to the rule of law but still big winners.​

Wake & Bybee: B+

For actually looking at the merits of the case and accurately citing the rule of law. I’m sure they will have many opportunities to be in disagreement with the most liberal and most overturned court in the land.​

US Management: B

While Parker and co would certainly like to get to a single CBA, they would probably take the current situation as a gift rather than coughing up hundreds of millions in higher wages from a truly unified pilot group.​

USAPA: B-

For taking the shot to appeal to the 9th. My guess is that they would have been on life support if they had lost yet again and the majority of all US pilots would have been looking for a way to dump them and fast.​

US Pilots – East & West: F

With all of the winners on the above list, someone has got to go into the loser column. East is paying for a castrated, more losses than wins union on bankruptcy wages that will be the norm for a long time to come. The west is paying a union that fully intends to disadvantage them at every turn all the while also paying for justice to finally win the day, but the political agendas of liberal judges care nothing about seeing justice served.​

I fail to see how this underpaid and hyper-expensive stalemate is preferable to being unrepresented, at-will pilots.

I've got another one:

East pilots - A

Prevailed in keeping more junior pilots from stealing their jobs/positions at an airline that most have worked for for more than half their lives, through good and hard times. Dumping ALPA was the SMARTEST thing they EVER did.​

 

[FL430]

Keep telling yourself that if it helps you sleep nights. The company doesn't care what USAPA comes up with, as long as it meets their requirements (basically, that it doesn't cost them money).

I know you think that the company LOVES the West guys and HATES the East guys, but I assure you they aren't benevolent enough to LOVE anybody.

They hate everyone equally.

Oldie is spot on here. If you dont believe it just watch the latest PHX crew news. DP states emphatically on multiple occasions that the company is not going to get into the seniority battle. He goes on to say that the company will have to accept a list that meets the companies preconcieved criteria - I know all of you already know what criteria we are all talking about. Why make this statement if his intention is only to accept the NIC????? He also states that one side will also have to get very familiar with the word acceptance at some point in the future.

This time...........why was there no applause for DP after he made his closing comments - other times you guys always applaud him? Didnt like what he had to say I guess.

Nic4 and Clear ......was that you asking doug the whiny questions? Are you the bald guy or the soccer fan?

Good news is that some of the furloughees may be coming back!

 

[CallawayGolf]

I've got another one:

East pilots - A

Prevailed in keeping more junior pilots from stealing their jobs/positions at an airline that most have worked for for more than half their lives, through good and hard times. Dumping ALPA was the SMARTEST thing they EVER did.​

I could care less about ALPA, but if you mean electing USAPA was the SMARTEST thing east pilots ever did, that explains a lot as to why they are the lowest paid amongst their peers will likely retire in the same circumstances they are in now. What you call “smart”, I call laughable or pathetic.

 

[FL430]

Ah yes, liberal-biased, revisionist judges on the 9th acting as prescient prognosticators rather than objectively evaluating the facts of the case. Wake got it right and Bybee obviously wrote or dictated his own dissenting opinion, which was excellent and showed a firm grasp of the rule of law. My guess is that Tashima and Graber told their staffers that they were going to rule the case not to be ripe and that the staffers needed to cite various ripeness doctrines to support their pre-determined views.

Maybe you would have had a better chance with OJ's judges and attorneys.

USAPA is in the same exact spot they were the day they became the CBA. A stalemate is the best and only victory they can hope for.

Not necessarily a bad thing....

DOH has even less of a shot of becoming the seniority system than the NIC.

See the PHX crew news for the latest - DP doesnt agree with you on this.

All the 9th did was to ensure that LOA93 is here to stay until self-help arrives many years from now.

That would suit us fine - separate ops and we will capture our own attrition.

 

[MUTATIS MUTANDIS]

Let’s talk winners and losers in all of this post 9th circuit ruling post-mortem
Seham & Jacobs: A+.

Win, lose or draw this case yielded some nice financial rewards for our two litigators.​

Tashima & Graber : A-

For supporting big-labor consistent with their liberal biases and hopes for even higher career aspirations. No integrity or commitment to the rule of law but still big winners.​

Wake & Bybee: B+

For actually looking at the merits of the case and accurately citing the rule of law. I’m sure they will have many opportunities to be in disagreement with the most liberal and most overturned court in the land.​

US Management: B

While Parker and co would certainly like to get to a single CBA, they would probably take the current situation as a gift rather than coughing up hundreds of millions in higher wages from a truly unified pilot group.​

USAPA: B-

For taking the shot to appeal to the 9th. My guess is that they would have been on life support if they had lost yet again and the majority of all US pilots would have been looking for a way to dump them and fast.​

US Pilots – East & West: F

With all of the winners on the above list, someone has got to go into the loser column. East is paying for a castrated, more losses than wins union on bankruptcy wages that will be the norm for a long time to come. The west is paying a union that fully intends to disadvantage them at every turn all the while also paying for justice to finally win the day, but the political agendas of liberal judges care nothing about seeing justice served.​

I fail to see how this underpaid and hyper-expensive stalemate is preferable to being unrepresented, at-will pilots.

My Man Call, sounds like you pick up the driver when any novice knows the wedge is a better option,blame , blame blame,USAPA B- you guys need a new "PLAN" taking a "shot appeal" your legal knowledge obviously lended itself to some maybe extracurricular activities when it comes to evaluation of a situation , but I'll give credit where credit is due , you talk a good game but your marksmanship is very lacking , GOOD LUCK! MM Hope the CARWASHES are selling!

 

[oldiebutgoody]

I could care less about ALPA, but if you mean electing USAPA was the SMARTEST thing east pilots ever did, that explains a lot as to why they are the lowest paid amongst their peers will likely retire in the same circumstances they are in now. What you call “smart”, I call laughable or pathetic.

ALL of that is ALPA's fault. If they had a REAL merger policy, not passing off their "dirty laundry" to an outside arbtrator, we would have had a contract a LONG time ago.

The wage thing, you can just blame THAT on ALPA too. Not only that, but it started the "race to the bottom" for all the other airlines, too.

Talk about laughable and pathetic, the west guys voted ALPA onto their property AFTER they watched all of this happen here and at other airlines. Bunch of rubes!