US Pilots Labor Discussion 4/6- STAY ON TOPIC AND OBSERVE THE RULES

[Black Swan]

Sure it's an internal union dispute - it's certainly not a disagreement between the union and company or the union and a supplier. That, in itself, doesn't mean that it's not something to be addressed by the courts since it's not a dispute between members with the union acting as the neutral but a dispute between a group of members and the union itself. The alternative is to have the union decide if it is right or wrong - having the defendant determine the outcome would mean nobody would ever be guilty of anything in this country.

The MDA pilots are suing ALPA, but that is also an "internal union dispute." I didn't keep up with it, but a group of US retirees were suing ALPA over loss of the DBP pension I think - another "internal union dispute."

Jim

Not an internal union dispute when the company is alleged to have provided false information to the union with the help of an outside consultant in order to get rid of the pension. Not an internal dispute when the company hid the fact MDA was on the same operating certificate, and just a shell game.

 

[nic4us]

. USAPA never got a call.

How do you know usapa never got a call? Maybe Isom or Kirby called to bring usapa into the loop, and they pulled a Bradford and refused to take the call from anyone less than the president of the company.

ring....ring....."USAirline pilots assoc"

Mr Isom:...."Hello this is Robert Isom, Mike Cleary please."

usapa:....."I am sorry Mr. Isom, Mr Cleary, our President speaks to no less than the president of LCC, if you would like to speak to Mr. Cleary, please have Mr. Parker call instead.

Isom: "Okay I will get right on that, goodbye"......click.......hangs up the phone at the conference table attended by Parker, Tilton, Kirby et. al...."Sorry Doug...they are still just a bunch of overinflated ego idiots,Cleary is as dense as Bradford, these folks are too wrapped up in screwing the West pilots that they are unwilling to do bussiness."

Mr. Parker...." I assumed as much...too bad...well, we do not need them to be onboard....hey Greg, did Wendy take your secretaries call?

Mr. Tilton: " Yes she did and the UAL MEC is all up to speed and ready to act if we move forward."

Mr. Parker...."Okay, great, we will just leave usapa out of the loop, thay won't be around in a few months anyway".

 

[Reed Richards]

How do you know usapa never got a call? Maybe Isom or Kirby called to bring usapa into the loop, and they pulled a Bradford and refused to take the call from anyone less than the president of the company.

ring....ring....."USAirline pilots assoc"

Mr Isom:...."Hello this is Robert Isom, Mike Cleary please."

usapa:....."I am sorry Mr. Isom, Mr Cleary, our President speaks to no less than the president of LCC, if you would like to speak to Mr. Cleary, please have Mr. Parker call instead.

Isom: "Okay I will get right on that, goodbye"......click.......hangs up the phone at the conference table attended by Parker, Tilton, Kirby et. al...."Sorry Doug...they are still just a bunch of overinflated ego idiots,Cleary is as dense as Bradford, these folks are too wrapped up in screwing the West pilots that they are unwilling to do bussiness."

Mr. Parker...." I assumed as much...too bad...well, we do not need them to be onboard....hey Greg, did Wendy take your secretaries call?

Mr. Tilton: " Yes she did and the UAL MEC is all up to speed and ready to act if we move forward."

Mr. Parker...."Okay, great, we will just leave usapa out of the loop, thay won't be around in a few months anyway".

Your main concern now, besides playing imaginary conversation games with yourself…is exactly what calls indeed took place.

Word on the street is the Company has a little inside information you are not privy to…….. yet.

You Westies have always insisted there was a piece of the pie you were owed. There is pie alright, and it is about to be divided and served.

Hang on, some surprise twists (for all us) ahead.

And oh yes….”Scope.”

RR

 

[Black Swan]

How do you know usapa never got a call? Maybe Isom or Kirby called to bring usapa into the loop, and they pulled a Bradford and refused to take the call from anyone less than the president of the company.

ring....ring....."USAirline pilots assoc"

Mr Isom:...."Hello this is Robert Isom, Mike Cleary please."

usapa:....."I am sorry Mr. Isom, Mr Cleary, our President speaks to no less than the president of LCC, if you would like to speak to Mr. Cleary, please have Mr. Parker call instead.

Isom: "Okay I will get right on that, goodbye"......click.......hangs up the phone at the conference table attended by Parker, Tilton, Kirby et. al...."Sorry Doug...they are still just a bunch of overinflated ego idiots,Cleary is as dense as Bradford, these folks are too wrapped up in screwing the West pilots that they are unwilling to do bussiness."

Mr. Parker...." I assumed as much...too bad...well, we do not need them to be onboard....hey Greg, did Wendy take your secretaries call?

Mr. Tilton: " Yes she did and the UAL MEC is all up to speed and ready to act if we move forward."

Mr. Parker...."Okay, great, we will just leave usapa out of the loop, thay won't be around in a few months anyway".

Ring Ring- "hello, Doug Parker.." Hi Doug. Jamie Dimon here. About the financing. A lot of the investors are holding back on this because of a few issues. Is it true you have one group of pilots on one pay scale, and another group on a higher one?" Doug," well, yes." Dimon- "so you really have not completed this merger, is this not true? I am also told the one group of pilots cannot fly the other groups' equipment? This would be like my wife telling me I couldn't borrow her car if one was in the shop. Is this a merger, or what is this Parker? How are you going to go before the Commerce Committee in the Senate and explain this, when the lower paid pilot group is going to rebut you? This is ludicrous, You had 5 yrs. to complete this thing, and it is still going on. The DAL NW merge got wrapped in months. I can just see the Gordon Gecko comparisons now. Better get that deal wrapped or the financing is gone." parker-"but Mr. Dimon, didn't you think that was smart keeping our costs so low with the help of one group subsidizing the other?" Dimon- "Parker, look around you. Continental figured it out, so did Valujet. Both had near death experiences. They learned, you didn't. This is so Frank Lorenzo. So eighties Parker. Figure it out. Give Herb Kelleher a call. You are the laughing stock of the industry. Lowest paid employees, and Southwest still outperforms you. Your toilets stink, and your jets are late. Quit trying to screw your employees and get it together. It is most likely too late anyway....."

 

[Black Swan]

How do you know usapa never got a call? Maybe Isom or Kirby called to bring usapa into the loop, and they pulled a Bradford and refused to take the call from anyone less than the president of the company.

ring....ring....."USAirline pilots assoc"

Mr Isom:...."Hello this is Robert Isom, Mike Cleary please."

usapa:....."I am sorry Mr. Isom, Mr Cleary, our President speaks to no less than the president of LCC, if you would like to speak to Mr. Cleary, please have Mr. Parker call instead.

Isom: "Okay I will get right on that, goodbye"......click.......hangs up the phone at the conference table attended by Parker, Tilton, Kirby et. al...."Sorry Doug...they are still just a bunch of overinflated ego idiots,Cleary is as dense as Bradford, these folks are too wrapped up in screwing the West pilots that they are unwilling to do bussiness."

Mr. Parker...." I assumed as much...too bad...well, we do not need them to be onboard....hey Greg, did Wendy take your secretaries call?

Mr. Tilton: " Yes she did and the UAL MEC is all up to speed and ready to act if we move forward."

Mr. Parker...."Okay, great, we will just leave usapa out of the loop, thay won't be around in a few months anyway".

The strangest thing about this is the total ignorance of the fact -Parker, if he really wanted to do this, torpedoed his chances long ago. How can you go before the Senate, which he will have to do, and explain how you want to do another merge, and maybe try and run the place when you can't complete the first job in 5 yrs? Even funnier, you Westies want it so bad, but you helped ruin the plan! Now that is hilarious. Wait till Cleary takes the stand to explain how it happened. This is going to be classic!

 

[nic4us]

Your main concern now, besides playing imaginary conversation games with yourself…is exactly what calls indeed took place.

Word on the street is the Company has a little inside information you are not privy to…….. yet.

You Westies have always insisted there was a piece of the pie you were owed. There is pie alright, and it is about to be divided and served.

Hang on, some surprise twists (for all us) ahead.

And oh yes….”Scope.”

RR

If the word is already on the street, what makes you think you are more aware of anything the rest of us are not? You may be the smartest man alive, but it hardly requires a supernatural intellect to realize usapa is a lame duck organization who failed in their attempt to steal from the West, and are about to reap the consequences of their corrupt ways.

I fully expect conversations have taken place between usapa and the UAL MEC, usapa and the company, and internally within usapa. None of which will have more than minimal influence on how every other player is going to treat the usapa as the sham they are.

I do not care much for pie. Much prefer cake, usapa wants to have the West's cake and eat it too. If the cake is cut and served, usapa can expect to get their piece after all the legitimate players have been served. Here is you cake Mr.Tilton, here is yours UAL MEC, have a piece of cake AFA, IBT, IAM, Doug would you like a big piece?, have cake Cities of Chicago, Denver, Phoenix. Would you like cake investment groups, Airbus cake for you? usapa?....are you still here? is there any cake left for usapa? yes, it is being served over in the unemployment line on pages of the east contract.

 

[Black Swan]

If the word is already on the street, what makes you think you are more aware of anything the rest of us are not? You may be the smartest man alive, but it hardly requires a supernatural intellect to realize usapa is a lame duck organization who failed in their attempt to steal from the West, and are about to reap the consequences of their corrupt ways.

I fully expect conversations have taken place between usapa and the UAL MEC, usapa and the company, and internally within usapa. None of which will have more than minimal influence on how every other player is going to treat the usapa as the sham they are.

I do not care much for pie. Much prefer cake, usapa wants to have the West's cake and eat it too. If the cake is cut and served, usapa can expect to get their piece after all the legitimate players have been served. Here is you cake Mr.Tilton, here is yours UAL MEC, have a piece of cake AFA, IBT, IAM, Doug would you like a big piece?, have cake Cities of Chicago, Denver, Phoenix. Would you like cake investment groups, Airbus cake for you? usapa?....are you still here? is there any cake left for usapa? yes, it is being served over in the unemployment line on pages of the east contract.

Parker is going to get eaten alive. First by the Senate, then UAL labor groups, then USAPA. The only merger that is possible now is UAL and CO. Parker destroyed his chances before he even had a chance. He cannot complete the first merge, and you guys helped him destroy his chances by going for your windfall. If this thing even goes before Congress, and Joe Monda gets up there and tells his story and backs up why Parker does not deserve a shot at running anything, merging anything until he cleans up the first mess he made ,you are going to get a reality check. You are going to have to explain to the Senate and the public how you justify why doing your little plan is just and right. And the rest of the world is going to get a whiff of how greedy and corrupt you are, and they will really get an idea why Parker is toast and can't put the deal together. He is going to take YEARS with this situation! I can't wait till the truth to this little mess gets out to the public. Everybody is absolutely going to understand the hosing we got, a windfall for you. And they are going to absolutely understand why we dumped ALPA, and stopped this train in its' tracks. It is stopped dead for years. Explain this to joe on the street. He gets it real fast. Even a kid understands this arbitration is wrong. ALPA stood by and let it go. Then we stopped it.

 

[CallawayGolf]

The strangest thing about this is the total ignorance of the fact -Parker, if he really wanted to do this, torpedoed his chances long ago. How can you go before the Senate, which he will have to do, and explain how you want to do another merge, and maybe try and run the place when you can't complete the first job in 5 yrs? Even funnier, you Westies want it so bad, but you helped ruin the plan! Now that is hilarious. Wait till Cleary takes the stand to explain how it happened. This is going to be classic!

Parker is not responsible for the five-year delay in integrating the pilots and FAs. I don't put much stock in the intelligence level of the average US senator, but they have no say over the merger approval process anyway. That responsibility falls solely on the DOJ and who knows how they will view this potential transaction? Only time will tell.

The fact that the pilots and FAs aren't integrated is really a testament to how screwed up and ineffective the RLA and NLRA laws have become. The 9th circuit and judge wake will correct the atrocities of USAPA and the east pilots' intransigence strategy soon enough, but blaming Parker for the situation is just another example of the severe character flaws of USAPA supporters. If congress has even the slightest concern for justice and proper management-labor interactions they will take steps to close the kinds of loopholes that allowed USAPA to shirk their responsibility and endlessly delay good-faith negotiations in the first place.

 

[Black Swan]

Parker is not responsible for the five-year delay in integrating the pilots and FAs. I don't put much stock in the intelligence level of the average US senator, but they have no say over the merger approval process anyway. That responsibility falls solely on the DOJ and who knows how they will view this potential transaction? Only time will tell.

The fact that the pilots and FAs aren't integrated is really a testament to how screwed up and ineffective the RLA and NLRA laws have become. The 9th circuit and judge wake will correct the atrocities of USAPA and the east pilots' intransigence strategy soon enough, but blaming Parker for the situation is just another example of the severe character flaws of USAPA supporters. If congress has even the slightest concern for justice and proper management-labor interactions they will take steps to close the kinds of loopholes that allowed USAPA to shirk their responsibility and endlessly delay good-faith negotiations in the first place.

Calloway- you want it so badly you have lost touch. He runs the company, he is the absolute end all and answer all. The simple fact is he cannot complete the AAA-AWA pilot integration. He is stopped cold, and the thing that stops it is your prize possession, the NIC. You don't put much stock in the intelligence of the average US Senator? Apparently your leader thinks like you. Both of you are going to be shocked by how Parker is going to get eaten alive trying this. You are going to be humbled by it. Answer this- how do you go for the next level, the biggest airline deal of all when you failed, utterly failed, to put your first together, and then have to own up to the DOT stats that show how poorly the operation is run? This is a bottom tier carrier, still not merged. Two different pay scales. It is right there for them to see. Then you try and go for UAL having not addressed this? Then you go before the US Senate, and try to explain it to them? All I can say is this, this is going to eclipse all of your rants about USAPA, Seham, on and all. This, is going to be mighty fine entertainment. And you helped make it happen!

 

[CallawayGolf]

Calloway- you want it so badly you have lost touch. He runs the company, he is the absolute end all and answer all. The simple fact is he cannot complete the AAA-AWA pilot integration. He is stopped cold, and the thing that stops it is your prize possession, the NIC. You don't put much stock in the intelligence of the average US Senator? Apparently your leader thinks like you. Both of you are going to be shocked by how Parker is going to get eaten alive trying this. You are going to be humbled by it. Answer this- how do you go for the next level, the biggest airline deal of all when you failed, utterly failed, to put your first together, and then have to own up to the DOT stats that show how poorly the operation is run? This is a bottom tier carrier, still not merged. Two different pay scales. It is right there for them to see. Then you try and go for UAL having not addressed this? Then you go before the US Senate, and try to explain it to them? All I can say is this, this is going to eclipse all of your rants about USAPA, Seham, on and all. This, is going to be mighty fine entertainment. And you helped make it happen!

Once again you make claims that are unsubstantiated by the facts. The thousands merger and integration tasks from 2005 are all done except for two labor groups. One refuses to move on without the pilots, and CBA for the pilots has shown zero interest in negotiating for better pay and work rules for their constituents.

A federal injunction says you're wrong that Parker could fix this. He has no choice but to use the accepted seniority list and USAPA will not discuss using it. Parker is not going to break the law and go for DOH just to please the east pilots. Absolutely never going to happen.

I'll bet if Parker asked west pilots to come to a US Senate hearing on the pilot contract mess that many would jump at the chance to proclaim what a despicable organization USAPA is and how they were formed to bring harm to their own constituents. How's that going to help your cause?

 

[Poug Darker]

Once again you make claims that are unsubstantiated by the facts. The thousands merger and integration tasks from 2005 are all done except for two labor groups. One refuses to move on without the pilots, and CBA for the pilots has shown zero interest in negotiating for better pay and work rules for their constituents.

A federal injunction says you're wrong that Parker could fix this. He has no choice but to use the accepted seniority list and USAPA will not discuss using it. Parker is not going to break the law and go for DOH just to please the east pilots.

Oh, Please. Zero interest in negotiating for better pay and work rules for their constituents? I hardly think so.
As of now, yes, DP is hogtied just like the rest of us, waiting for a decision from the 9th. Until then, it is just a waste of breath and good bandwidth to say that USAPA is delaying anything.
Everyone wants better. Unfortunately, DP and co. don't want to ante up. The kirby offer is a stinker, and to advocate for a quick deal right now says: "company shill on board".
DP could have fixed this a looooong time ago, and chose not to.
cheers.

 

[BoeingBoy]

Not an internal union dispute when the company is alleged to have provided false information to the union with the help of an outside consultant in order to get rid of the pension. Not an internal dispute when the company hid the fact MDA was on the same operating certificate, and just a shell game.

Oh, so the company is the defendent and not ALPA? And since it's union members vs company, first ALPA and now USAPA is footing the bill? Your initials fit...

Jim

 

[Black Swan]

Oh, so the company is the defendent and not ALPA? And since it's union members vs company, first ALPA and now USAPA is footing the bill? Your initials fit...

Jim

Who knows where this thing is going? Is it just the company? Is it the company and the PBGC, and ALPA not doing due diligence? We will find out hopefully. I do remember no resistance from the PBGC when they took a look at the plan. They probably took one look and saw a nice chunk of change to drop in the depleted pot of the other carrier obligations to pay. Then there was a lot more pushback from the PBGC with UAL. This was all mentioned in the Seabury Group report a year before the AWA merge. The USAir Pension was mentioned as the major stumbling block to doing a deal. I am sure you got some damage from this. But of course, your vaunted ALPA could not have hurt its' own membership by letting it fly by in the night, and then charging the management fees for the followup. There is no way. Just one more reason ALPA got turned into the smoking hole. We didn't get to vote on it. They had it coming for more ways than one, although you and the Westies tag it all on the Nic. That, was the final straw, and that is no BS!

 

[Black Swan]

Parker is not responsible for the five-year delay in integrating the pilots and FAs. I don't put much stock in the intelligence level of the average US senator, but they have no say over the merger approval process anyway. That responsibility falls solely on the DOJ and who knows how they will view this potential transaction? Only time will tell.

The fact that the pilots and FAs aren't integrated is really a testament to how screwed up and ineffective the RLA and NLRA laws have become. The 9th circuit and judge wake will correct the atrocities of USAPA and the east pilots' intransigence strategy soon enough, but blaming Parker for the situation is just another example of the severe character flaws of USAPA supporters. If congress has even the slightest concern for justice and proper management-labor interactions they will take steps to close the kinds of loopholes that allowed USAPA to shirk their responsibility and endlessly delay good-faith negotiations in the first place.

Thank you HP Driver, Calloway, Nic4US, Cactusboy53, Freebird, Onebadcat, and all too numerous to mention. Thank you from ALL of us on the East side. Thank you for the maintenance of LOA 93 wages, and the NIC. You have singlehandedly staved off the chance of the UAL merger. Had it not been for you hanging it all out there for so long, Doug might have actually been able to pull this one off. Not now. And that is a really good thing. Looking forward to the 9th, and the LOA 93 grievance. With a little luck, you are going to really going to see that yes, we did go through some really bad times, but we had some really decent provisions lurking in that LOA that are going to shine!

 

[freedom]

Once again you make claims that are unsubstantiated by the facts. The thousands merger and integration tasks from 2005 are all done except for two labor groups. One refuses to move on without the pilots, and CBA for the pilots has shown zero interest in negotiating for better pay and work rules for their constituents.

A federal injunction says you're wrong that Parker could fix this. He has no choice but to use the accepted seniority list and USAPA will not discuss using it. Parker is not going to break the law and go for DOH just to please the east pilots. Absolutely never going to happen.

I'll bet if Parker asked west pilots to come to a US Senate hearing on the pilot contract mess that many would jump at the chance to proclaim what a despicable organization USAPA is and how they were formed to bring harm to their own constituents. How's that going to help your cause?

the game is up , it's over ... the west pilots have won this ... it was a very good attempt east pilots , and the lengths you went to win it were admirable , but the games over ....

Everything this guy just said is true ...