US Pilots Labor Discussion 3/19- STAY ON TOPIC AND OBSERVE THE RULES

[EastUS]

I am very curious of how you view the west pilots and would there possibly have been pilot support for a merger between the west and DL at that time.

I'm also interested in that. Would the poster have supported placing a 3 month new hire at AWA ahead of Delta's people with 16 plus years on the line?

 

[EastUS]

The grown ups and professional pilots, both east and west, will work fine together in the same cockpits. I dare say that there are a lot more of them than there are of you.

That's why you're wrong.

By what "reasoning" do you patronizingly project/assume the referenced poster is anything other than a "grown up and professional pilot"? Apparently; just because his opinion of the potential difficulties inherent with combining the groups differs from yours? Nice. I think you're defeating your own assertion here.

 

[EastUS]

IOW, we actually encourage management to fragment us in the next round of consolidation. We provide a plan on how to do so in a structured and orderly way. We offer our support. We telegraph the same to the industry.

Any potential suitor or suitors have thus far been disinclined to involve themselves with this labor quagmire. An official position on the part of the company that they are seeking to merge out either the west or the east, or both separately, with pilot support, may actually change the dynamics and motivation in the consolidation arena.

Such a plan, for example, could provide a provision in which east pilots go west and west go east, if they accept Nicolau or DOH - for those who place geographic location above location on a particular seniority list.

That seems a very reasonable idea.

 

[goneflyin]

This is a very good perspective and one that we all should be aware of. I am very curious of how you view the west pilots and would there possibly have been pilot support for a merger between the west and DL at that time.

I have favorable impressions of the former AWA guys I've met, both in professional situations and on the occasional layover. I can say that about the east guys, too, though. (I've had some great layovers in Rome and Barcelona with USAirways pilots and F/As.) Based on the guys I've met, the east ranting on this board seems like an anomaly.

That being said, I doubt that there would have been much support for a Delta/America West merger, but for different reasons. While there would not have been the pilot issues that I mentioned earlier, the AWA business model is at odds with Delta's. I don't think Delta's higher seat mile costs could have absorbed AWA's route structure; the combined airline would have trouble making money in the west markets where AWA was formerly profitable. We saw this after the Western Airlines merger in 1987.

The "rookie" comments that have been hurled westward puzzle me, though. Most of the west pilots I've encountered are veterans of other airlines (often Eastern Airlines), and have a depth of flying experience at odds with the title they've been given.

 

[Ames]

Thanks, goneflyin, good stuff.

 

[Black Swan]

Since you brought me into this conversation...

I'm a Delta pilot (DOH 1987, flying as a 767ER capt.), and I was vehemently opposed to the USAirways buyout, but not for the reason you state. I saw the east guys as a group with unrealistic expectations, and an inability to honor their past agreements. You were unrealistic and unreasonable in your quest for date-of-hire integration, and when you didn't get your way, you chose to attempt an end run around the law.

At the time the USAirways/Delta attempt was announced, I was flying a trip with a SAN layover on Monday. Every Tuesday morning, I would ride to the airport with a US crew. Without fail, the F/O would ask me when I was hired, and if I could hold 777 captain (I could, and can, BTW). Their hunger and greed was palpable; they wanted what I had.

Just for a minute, though, lets ignore the personal aspect that makes any acquisition of USAirways assets so unappealing. What, exactly, would Delta (or United, or American, or Continental) need from your network to complete or enhance their own? Nothing, of course. All the above airlines have a comprehensive network already. None of these airlines need a new hub. We'd all like more restricted slots, but you know how the government is about those lately; they're more interested in giving them to jetBlue and Southwest.

For better or worse, you guys are stuck with each other. I hope you can make it work. I hope that the average east pilot doesn't share the attitude and viewpoint that I see on this board.

I have certainly enjoyed my interaction with Delta crews, especially since the guard was lowered some years ago, and we were allowed to finally ride in the van with them, and share a jumpseat when they negotiated it. I also remember palpable hunger and greed when the company was basing its' growth plan on USAirways folding, and the Delta employees were certainly fine with that at the time. So, unfortunately it goes both ways. Delta employees are by in large, good people. Unfortunately, we have all taken our hits in BK.

 

[Phoenix]

Since you brought me into this conversation...

I'm a Delta pilot (DOH 1987, flying as a 767ER capt.), and I was vehemently opposed to the USAirways buyout, but not for the reason you state. I saw the east guys as a group with unrealistic expectations, and an inability to honor their past agreements. You were unrealistic and unreasonable in your quest for date-of-hire integration, and when you didn't get your way, you chose to attempt an end run around the law.

At the time the USAirways/Delta attempt was announced, I was flying a trip with a SAN layover on Monday. Every Tuesday morning, I would ride to the airport with a US crew. Without fail, the F/O would ask me when I was hired, and if I could hold 777 captain (I could, and can, BTW). Their hunger and greed was palpable; they wanted what I had.

Just for a minute, though, lets ignore the personal aspect that makes any acquisition of USAirways assets so unappealing. What, exactly, would Delta (or United, or American, or Continental) need from your network to complete or enhance their own? Nothing, of course. All the above airlines have a comprehensive network already. None of these airlines need a new hub. We'd all like more restricted slots, but you know how the government is about those lately; they're more interested in giving them to jetBlue and Southwest.

For better or worse, you guys are stuck with each other. I hope you can make it work. I hope that the average east pilot doesn't share the attitude and viewpoint that I see on this board.

You reserve for yourself a righteous indignation B) . You wanted to protect yourself against other that wanted to take from you what you considered to be your own; However, you appear to be completely oblivious to any perception that others would be compelled by the same motivation to do exactly what you hoped to do for yourself.

Has it escaped your notice that the West is looking lustfully at the East just like you claim the East was lustfully looking at Delta?

According to you, USAir was desperately lusting to merge with Delta but Delta wanted to stay separate. AWA wants desperately to merge with USAir but USAir would be content with LOA 93 wages forever if it meant that cactus pilots stayed in PHX.

Delta pilots wanted nothing to do with USAir (and evidently pretend it had nothing to do with seniority ) but now that USAir pilots are taking all lawful measures to protect themselves for the same motivation that you did...

P.S. You are welcome to ride in the hotel van. Think of it as "our" van.

 

[oscarjazz]

1. Congratulations on the softness of your hands.

2, When it does not meet the requirements of ALPA merger policy. The latest date of hire longevity policy of the Air Line Pilots Association regarding mergers (changed many times throughout the years) is evidence of misappropriation of seniority policy by ALPA.

Every work group of USAirways went date of hire. ALPA is now advocating date of hire. Note to John Prater, president of ALPA, nice try pal. You picked the wrong group to add the fine print and an amendment to natures way of handling order in a society.

Once again, you can repeat a lie often, but it doesn't make it the truth. ALPA Merger Policy was changed in 1991. Other than minor administrative changes it was not changed again until 2009 or 18 years later. Hardly a moving target.

ALPA merger policy DOES NOT advocate date of hire. It recognizes longevity as ONE factor that can affect the makeup of the list. You have repeated this falsehood many times now, it has been corrected several times also, yet you continue to say the same thing.

 

[Ames]

I also remember palpable hunger and greed when the company was basing its' growth plan on USAirways folding, and the Delta employees were certainly fine with that at the time. So, unfortunately it goes both ways. Delta employees are by in large, good people. Unfortunately, we have all taken our hits in BK.

Don't put that all on the Delta employees. The entire industry felt that way and still does.

 

[Ames]

You reserve for yourself a righteous indignation B) . You wanted to protect yourself against other that wanted to take from you what you considered to be your own; However, you appear to be completely oblivious to any perception that others would be compelled by the same motivation to do exactly what you hoped to do for yourself.

According to you, USAir was desperately lusting to merge with Delta but Delta wanted to stay separate.

Delta pilots wanted nothing to do with USAir (and evidently pretend it had nothing to do with seniority ) but now that USAir pilots are taking all lawful measures to protect themselves for the same motivation that you did...

If this is true, why did Delta have a relatively seamless merger with NWA? Seniority settled. Decent contract settled.

 

[N905TW]

Has it escaped your notice that the West is looking lustfully at the East just like you claim the East was lustfully looking at Delta?

Here's a five year old newsflash for you, please try and keep up: The West didn't want anything from you, least of all your list of 2000 furloughed pilots and 15 year F/Os.

 

[exB717Flyer]

The grown ups and professional pilots, both east and west, will work fine together in the same cockpits. I dare say that there are a lot more of them than there are of you.

This is the truth. And don't forget, web blowhards tend to be much more caustic (and brave) behind the anonymous comfort of their keyboards than they are in person. I've flown with many who vehemently disagree with me on various political and religious topics yet somehow still manage to have a good time.

The TWAers have survived co-flying with the AA pilots so I've no reason to believe the same thing won't happen here. Patience.

 

[cleardirect]

I'm also interested in that. Would the poster have supported placing a 3 month new hire at AWA ahead of Delta's people with 16 plus years on the line?

What seat/position did that 16 year DAL pilot hold? What seat/ position did that 16 year USA pilot hold?

What difference does it make now? That arbitration is done. The company has accepted it and the union is under federal injunction to use the Nicolau.

When you retire and go to the home the other old people are not going to care. Kind of like me. It is an old argument that has been settled.

 

[Harry Callahan]

You people out West amaze me. I hope the East pilots will stick by their guns even if the doors close.

 

[Metroyet]

You people out West amaze me. I hope the East pilots will stick by their guns even if the doors close.

I know. Crazy right. Why don't these West guys just finally figure out that it's in their best interest to roll over, let the East violate a multitude of labor, contract, and agency laws? Why won't the West just vacate the jobs they had and just hand them over to a guy who spent 3X as much time on furlough as he ever did actively working for the company? Why can't the West see that contracts and arbitration are ONLY valid of it benefits NOBODY but the East?!! What is wrong with these ignorant Westies? Also, Why in the HELL can't the west guys figure out that posting a message on a web board is NO DIFFERENT than acting as a principle in an organized crime ring?!! These West guys are crazy.

Nicalau was crazy
Judge Wake is crazy
The jury was crazy
The company is crazy
The 9th is obviously crazy in that it's taken them MONTHS to see how "un" ripe this case was

Bottom Line. East pilots have every right to their perceived omnipotence. Rules don't apply to them. The Law, in all forms, is like play-doh in their hands. They shape it however they want, whenever they want, and as often as their needs change. Nobody has any right to expect that the East pilot group should EVER, honor their agreements, act in good faith, obey the law, deal fairly with the company, and God Forbid, actually represent the best interests of ALL pilots...not just extort money from the minority to fund their ever growing list of illegal actions levied at that same minority.

Yep. Stick to your guns East pilots...you have nothing to fear.