US Pilots Labor Discussion 3/19- STAY ON TOPIC AND OBSERVE THE RULES

[EastUS]

Can you say "Cactus"?

Cactus, Cactus, Cactus, Cactus, Cactus, Cactus, Cactus, Cactus .

It isn't "US Air", it IS "Cactus".

What does that suggest?

"What does that suggest?" Hmmm....perhaps the complete inability of all concerned to come up with any semblance of a respectable callsign that sounds like something other than a childish joke, or is even an actual obscenity in some foreign languages?

 

[NiceLandingCaptain]

>>>>snip

Enjoy that "victory." I tend to look at the call sign as the Australians look at the word cactus: D.O.A.

Which is exactly how US Air (ticker U) was looking to everyone on the planet until AWA tossed you a lifeline: D.O.A.

What would have been the outcome of that offering had your pilot group made public its stance on seniority integration then?

 

[Richard]

You folks have been warned over and over about arguing about Who saved Whom--it was a merger, and the point is irrelevant.

Stop thumping your chests and get back to the topic at hand--next post about who saved whom gets time off.

 

[nic4us]

The lesson to be learned is that you are much better off negotiating from a realistic set of goals and expectations rather than digging into an untenable situation and then refusing to move. (sound familiar?)

Oscar,

Very much enjoy your posts, it is great to have level headed third party input into the otherwise he said she said food fight.

Your conclusion was also reached by the United Negotiating committee and published after the Nic came out. Further, the exact same conclusion was reached by the Northwest Negotiating committee and published immediately post Nic. Perhaps that had something to do with the ability of the Northwest pilots to understand how to quantify their situation and proceed when merging with your group.

I am not seeking a validation from you, however I have posted many times that the biggest problem in our situation is that the east pilots did not, and still do not, understand the position they were/are in, and are therefore are unable to set the realistic goals and expectations in order to achieve the best possible outcome for their group. Ironically, Nic gave it to them anyway. The only thing they possible could have achieved better than the Nic, was the Nic with a few greater protections, such as longer fencing etc.

Until a few very basic concepts are understood and accepted by the east, they have little hope of improving their position in this situation.

First and foremost of which is a new company was formed, and a new seniority list was arbitrated.

Second, the West pilots were not integrated into their list, no West pilot jumped ahead of an east pilot. All pilots were combined based on practices mandated in the company's letter of labor priciples, ALPA merger policy, and the dictates of the Transition Agreement.

Finally, it is not a valid union objective to steal from a minority what you did not deserve, are never going to get and were denied in binding arbitration.

 

[aquagreen73s]

The lesson to be learned is that you are much better off negotiating from a realistic set of goals and expectations rather than digging into an untenable situation and then refusing to move. (sound familiar?)

A fundamental precept embedded within the arbitration structure is that parties will show up with arguments that are set to realistic evaluations of their circumstances. The procedural rules of arbitrations are rudimentary as compared to civil litigation for a reason; the whole idea of arbitration is to prevent legal gamesmanship from trumping the issue to be decided.

 

[Richard]

I guess some of you can't read. I just deleted all references to the E vs W argument which followed my last warning.

I told you once before to stop the nonsense. Next post arguing that same point gets 14 days and preview thereafter...
If it continues unabated we can always close this thread for a few days.

Which entity "saved" which is IRRELEVANT to the current situation....stop arguing about it NOW.

 

[trunion]

So, maybe you can tell us about the Career Expectations that an AAA pilot had. Three weeks or less to liquidation.

Yet the most junior guy on the east list told the Arbitrator that he fully expected to retire as the #6 330 Captain.

Clearly the Arbitrator and nobody else bought that one.


as far as Windfalls...........

Dave Odell was in the 99.9999% position of Active pilots before the merger and after the merger of ACTIVE pilots he was in the 99.9998% position. and the AWA #1 guy became #518 overnight..................Windfalls just flyin everywhere!!!!!!


Flip

Did dave Odell expect to fly widebodies. They pay more you know. Windfall! Percentages do not show everything unless the companies are the same size with similar equipment and routes.

 

[N905TW]

Did dave Odell expect to fly widebodies. They pay more you know. Windfall!

Did Dave, a working West pilot, expect to be furloughed while 800 East pilots who were on furlough status in 2004 replaced him in an active capacity?

I will agree with you, there certainly has been a windfall. To the EAST.

 

[CallawayGolf]

Did dave Odell expect to fly widebodies. They pay more you know. Windfall! Percentages do not show everything unless the companies are the same size with similar equipment and routes.

It's been said over and over again but the east pilots simply refuse to hear the truth. The NIC was not a windfall, it met the ALPA merger policy, and it was consistent with the conditions required by the TA. Complaining about it now won't do any good. The company accepted and paid for the new seniority list and a federal injunction requires this list to be used in all good-faith negotiations going forward. This is a fact; whether you choose to accept facts or not is a matter of personal preference and intellectual honesty for you. Even if you get the best-case scenario of the ninth ruling against ripeness (won't happen IMO), the other facts remain which means the NIC is still the list. USAPA brought you nothing you didn’t already have with ALPA – a single vote on a new CBA. Well, I guess they did bring you millions of dollars worth of slimy attorney fees being wasted on frivolous lawsuits. The 9th and the LOA93 snapbacks will be ruled on soon enough which will prove beyond any reasonable doubt that USAPA is utterly incompetent at best.

 

[Black Swan]

It's been said over and over again but the east pilots simply refuse to hear the truth. The NIC was not a windfall, it met the ALPA merger policy, and it was consistent with the conditions required by the TA. Complaining about it now won't do any good. The company accepted and paid for the new seniority list and a federal injunction requires this list to be used in all good-faith negotiations going forward. This is a fact; whether you choose to accept facts or not is a matter of personal preference and intellectual honesty for you. Even if you get the best-case scenario of the ninth ruling against ripeness (won't happen IMO), the other facts remain which means the NIC is still the list. USAPA brought you nothing you didn’t already have with ALPA – a single vote on a new CBA. Well, I guess they did bring you millions of dollars worth of slimy attorney fees being wasted on frivolous lawsuits. The 9th and the LOA93 snapbacks will be ruled on soon enough which will prove beyond any reasonable doubt that USAPA is utterly incompetent at best.

And if LOA 93 rates remain, which the West openly wishes, what happens when the jets are more profitably flown by East crews? What happens when the airline remains divided, and there is a pullback in PHX flying done by the west? You have successfully created an airline within an airline, used against you. Yes, the smaller east jets are lower paid, but remember, a lot of the east flying is widebody. And our 757 s pay higher than the 73 and little bus. Then there are the 330's. It is not the hardship you think it is. If we stay where we are in pay, same goes for you. You share as much blame as the blame you heap on USAPA. You have done nothing to collectively work for a higher rate. Be prepared to live with what you have, it's all you are going to ever get.

 

[Black Swan]

Which is exactly how US Air (ticker U) was looking to everyone on the planet until AWA tossed you a lifeline: D.O.A.

What would have been the outcome of that offering had your pilot group made public its stance on seniority integration then?

Since you guys have successfully created an airline within an airline. What is your MINIMUM FLEET allowed under your contract?

 

[flyinawa]

And if LOA 93 rates remain, which the West openly wishes, what happens when the jets are more profitably flown by East crews? What happens when the airline remains divided, and there is a pullback in PHX flying done by the west?

I don't think ANY West pilot doesn't want East pilots to make better wages. Suggesting anything contrary is simply inflammatory. I think it's preposterous that furloughed West pilots who get furloughed only get 6 months of travel benefits and East pilots retain them indefinitely. I don't see the East group rallying on their behalf. What it all boils down to is this: we will not allow you to circumvent the contract negotiation process by getting pay parity as a line item. As a group, you've already rallied around the idea of "vote no if it includes Nic". What possible motivation would ANY East pilot have vote at all if you already had the pay scale you thought you were entitled to? NONE. You either belly up to the table and play the game or you don't. It's your choice.

 

[N924PS]

And if LOA 93 rates remain, which the West openly wishes, what happens when the jets are more profitably flown by East crews? What happens when the airline remains divided, and there is a pullback in PHX flying done by the west? You have successfully created an airline within an airline, used against you. Yes, the smaller east jets are lower paid, but remember, a lot of the east flying is widebody. And our 757 s pay higher than the 73 and little bus. Then there are the 330's. It is not the hardship you think it is. If we stay where we are in pay, same goes for you. You share as much blame as the blame you heap on USAPA. You have done nothing to collectively work for a higher rate. Be prepared to live with what you have, it's all you are going to ever get.

USAPA has also created an airline within an airline, perhaps to be used against you. What happens when it comes time to seek self help and the West walks right over your picket line to fly the widebodies? Remember they negotiated a rate in their last ALPA contract.

Of the 2568 active pilots on the latest May bid, only 777, or 30% are widebody pilots. That leaves a lot of people on Group 2 and E190 LOA 93 rates. It's definintely a hardship on them.

We can all be prepared to live with what we have. There is ZERO incentive for the company to negotiate in earnest for a new contract. They see a fragmented group that can be held at arms length for years to come.

There is a lot of blame to go around, but no progress has been made looking back. Until leadership is in place that can unify all USAirways pilots moving forward and not dwell on what is already history, we are doomed.

 

[fatherabraham]

What happens when it comes time to seek self help and the West walks right over your picket line to fly the widebodies?

There is a lot of blame to go around, but no progress has been made looking back. Until leadership is in place that can unify all USAirways pilots moving forward and not dwell on what is already history, we are doomed.

N924PS,
Dare ya to answer this question simply yes or no.
Will the west in your first sentence walk past you or work alongside?

senntence 2: I know that seems to be the battlecry of the west.....but imo you may be wrong.

FA

 

[veritasaequitas]

There is ZERO incentive for the company to negotiate in earnest for a new contract.

Hmmmm, any solutions on providing the company some incentive? Should you beg? Should you give back? Hmmmmm, what would cause the company to feel an incentive to negotiate? It is something to think about. Maybe deliver flowers and a card.

It reminds me of the bird that ran around saying the sky was falling instead of doing something about it. I forgot what kind of bird that was. Do you know?