US Pilots Labor Discussion 3/19- STAY ON TOPIC AND OBSERVE THE RULES

[TheBadCat1313]

Curious... How many of the pilots hired at AWA after the merger announcement were former TWA?

Zero. Only a dozen pilots were hired out west after the announcement of the merger, none of which are former TWA. Our hiring, upgrades and movement has stagnated and 10% of west pilots are on the street since the company has shifted 8000 hours per month of our flying to east aircraft and crews (since you do it cheaper). There are probably 30 former TWA pilots on the west side, all of which were hired at AWA prior to the merger announcement.

Why leave the bottom of the American list to go to AWA, bottom of the list?

No former TWA pilot has resigned his or her seniority at AA, and most are still at least 1000 numbers deep in the AA furlough list. All had been furloughed by AA prior to being hired at AWA.

You clearly have no idea what happened at AA/TWA. Please allow me to put it in perspective for you. Let's say that after AWA acquired US, the AWA pilots used the same methodology to "integrate" the lists that the AA pilots used on the TWA guys. The #1 east pilot would be around #500 on the combined list. The next 1200 east pilots would be evenly ratioed from there down to O'dell and the remainder, from about June 1984 hires would be stapled. Then, all your bases except for one would be closed and everyone would be forced to commute if they still wanted a job. You would have about 500 protected captain positions in that base on specific aircraft only, until those aircraft went away, then it would be whatever your seniority would hold in the system. Your F/O's would be fenced off of any wide body equipment until the most junior AWA pilot could hold a line on that equipment.

While all this was being done to the TWA pilots, I don't recall hearing a peep out of a single USAir pilot about how DOH should have been used. Nicolau was Santa Claus to you guys compared to what the TWA pilots went through.

Merger is announced, USairways begins to layoff pilots, America West starts hiring...Relative Seniority basically makes a union ineffective...Management's UNION BUSTER has been handed to them by the pilots.

This makes absolutely no sense. US had 1800+ furloughs at the time of the merger, while AWA had been hiring for years. The only union buster handed to the company by the pilots has been the election of USAPA.

 

[nic4us]

Being a nonmember is inexcusable.

Well you will have to excuse me!

And for all you posters who cannot do math, Monda's LOS would have been 17 years not 19. Further, he realized the smallest gain of any east pilot (all of which had an upward gain in seniority as a result of the Nic) at a very small plus .031%. But, hey, even their very bottom guy moved up, and when you think about it, that is 100% better than where he would have been in less than a few weeks.

The quote of the weekend award goes to BoeingBoy for the following.

As I've said before, for someone who spends their entire career in an industry where your "relative position" on a seniority list determines everything about that career you sure have a hard time understanding relative position...

Jim

One final thought,,,, east attrition.

Can anyone explain to me how Monda, the absolute bottom guy, is now somehow deprived of attrition. I am thinking you cannot. Just as you cannot do the math to get his LOS figured correctly, you cannot do the math on this one either, and it just ain't adding up.

 

[Metroyet]

And that's why we WRECKED ALPA.

You didn't even put a scratch on ALPA get over yourself. You WRECKED the last few years W2. You've continued to WRECK what's left of an already dismal career....you didn't even touch ALPA. USAPA is costing the same money, has nothing to show for it, and is the laughing stock of the Industry...and you somehow think you proven something to someone who gives a damn what you think.

 

[veritasaequitas]

You didn't even put a scratch on ALPA get over yourself. You WRECKED the last few years W2. You've continued to WRECK what's left of an already dismal career....you didn't even touch ALPA. USAPA is costing the same money, has nothing to show for it, and is the laughing stock of the Industry...and you somehow think you proven something to someone who gives a damn what you think.

America West pilots contribution to the professional pilots wages.

Working for bottom of the barrel wages since the inception of your airline. Serious record of felonies by your group. Yes, you want to be considered real airline pilots so bad. Pitiful. You want to rewrite the history of your past by this merger and expect it to rewrite your pilots integrity history. Not so fast, nice try.

 

[Piedmont1984]

Attrition, or rather it's consequences, falls squarely into that "career expectations" that you said aren't worth anything. So you tell me - a PI newhire in 1988 expecting to be a captain in 2-3 years was reasonable or not? What did attrition get the bottom working East pilot between 1991 and 1997? How about from 2002 to 2007? Going back even further, what good did attrition do the BN pilots when their carrier went out of business? Or the EA pilots?

So what are you really saying? That West expectations aren't worth anything because they were based on fleet projections and attrition but that East expectations were guaranteed no matter what happened? Or that only East expectations for the dividends of attrition count?

Jim

Negative - attrition falls squarely within the concept of DOH. In fact, they are the bookends to a pilot's career, the day one begins and the day one retires - simple, measurable, unambiguous. Attrition is not a "career expectation" in the sense the west uses the term. It is a career certainty.

You're right however, if we had gone out of business then our attrition would not have meant squat. But as some here are quick to point out, one needs to face reality, and the reality is we did not go out of business. It doesn't matter how close we came to closing the doors. The fact remains that the doors did not close.

 

[HPearlyretiree]

.the reality is we did not go out of business.

Thank America West for that.

 

[Piedmont1984]

Thank America West for that.

I always make it a point to thank the west crews for saving us when I see them

And lets not forget what was in store for the west had the merger not happened. Although not as immediate, it was certainly in range.

 

[veritasaequitas]

Thank America West for that.

"However, West’s claim that U.S. Airways emerged from bankruptcy “only because it [was] acquired by a stronger enterprise”10 is reflected neither in the KPMG audit report (cited by West)11 nor in any other portion of the evidence."

Facts be darned link

 

[HPDriver]

I always make it a point to thank the west crews for saving us when I see them

And lets not forget what was in store for the west had the merger not happened. Although not as immediate, it was certainly in range.

Hardly.

And that's pure speculation.

We weren't anywhere near filing for bankruptcy and still had access to the credit market.

So unlike the certain liquidation the east was facing, the west wasn't even near filing for bankruptcy.

 

[nic4us]

America West pilots contribution to the professional pilots wages.

Working for bottom of the barrel wages since the inception of your airline. Serious record of felonies by your group. Yes, you want to be considered real airline pilots so bad. Pitiful. You want to rewrite the history of your past by this merger and expect it to rewrite your pilots integrity history. Not so fast, nice try.

Well at least it is not wikipedia.

Keep it up glass house denizen. Your own backyard is full of chickens that came home to roost.

 

[veritasaequitas]

Evidence of tort violations and intelligent retort, would be helpful to the West side during their posts.

 

[HPearlyretiree]

I always make it a point to thank the west crews for saving us when I see them

And lets not forget what was in store for the west had the merger not happened. Although not as immediate, it was certainly in range.

Yeah, sure, thanks, but we are going to screw you out of any seniority and try to kill the company and tens of thousands of jobs because of our greed, and our inability to live up to a binding agreement.

AWA would have been OK, there would have been one less competitor to deal with, and they had access to money.

 

[Be Careful What You Wish For.]

...the day one begins and the day one retires...

And where they were at when they retired.

Did they have a Pan Am career in the early 60's or a US Air career from the early 90's?

Jeez, it's hard to admit but we all ended up working at the worst time in commercial aviation history.

From Gulf War I to The Great Recession of 2008/2009.

Believe it or not - it could have been worse!

You can filibuster this until the short timers cash out but how many millions of dollars does this cost them?

Is it your money or their money?

 

[cleardirect]

America West pilots contribution to the professional pilots wages.

Working for bottom of the barrel wages since the inception of your airline. Serious record of felonies by your group. Yes, you want to be considered real airline pilots so bad. Pitiful. You want to rewrite the history of your past by this merger and expect it to rewrite your pilots integrity history. Not so fast, nice try.

In your opinion if AWA was such a dirt bag operation. It just must be killing you that our airline had to pull your airline out of the pit.

How disturbing for you that our low cost little carrier out west was in better shape and an arbitrator understood that. That you needed a young start up to save your legacy carrier. After 20 years your career was worth what a new hire at AWA was. Man that has got to sting.

That is the only explanation for your continuous spewing of hate. It has been 5 years since the merger. AWA is gone, US Air is gone but the call sign lives on. We are now LCC.

Posting old articles, manipulating wiki, and trying to make a point with an irrelevant arbitration, is that all you have left? Get over it and move on.

It is 2010 what does the future hold? You should be more concerned with that than what happened in the past.

 

[Be Careful What You Wish For.]

And lets not forget what was in store for the west had the merger not happened. Although not as immediate, it was certainly in range.

You do seem to forget about the Christmas melt down.

Do you really think we wold have out lasted them?

Does "Shot Gun Wedding" ring a bell?

You are the one guy who is truthful in what you believe.

I appreciate that you have conscious .