US Pilots Labor Discussion 3/19- STAY ON TOPIC AND OBSERVE THE RULES

[nic4us]

Evidence of tort violations and intelligent retort, would be helpful to the West side during their posts.

Evidence of any kind, as to why the links to old news about the three amigos, or the down under pilots, or the average pay scales of AWA when 20% of their pilot group was still on probation pay and 50% still had less than 5 years LOS would be helpful also. Moreover, any kind of connection as to what any of this has to do with the West merging with THE LOWEST PAID PILOTS IN THE INDUSTRY, in a FAIR and EQUITABLE ARBITRATION decision, might make a little sense.

After all, I thought that is what we were discussing, not just digging up skeletons in the West's closet, and posting links. But if what you want is a bunch of links to news stories of east pilots crossing picket lines, and shooting their neigbors, or taking contract concessions to the bottom of the barrel, or other unfortunate mishaps, just say so and this board will get covered with them.

 

[Be Careful What You Wish For.]

"However, West’s claim that U.S. Airways emerged from bankruptcy “only because it [was] acquired by a stronger enterprise”10 is reflected neither in the KPMG audit report (cited by West)11 nor in any other portion of the evidence."

Facts be darned link

Can you say "Cactus"?

Cactus, Cactus, Cactus, Cactus, Cactus, Cactus, Cactus, Cactus .

It isn't "US Air", it IS "Cactus".

What does that suggest?

Can you connect the two dots?

 

[Metroyet]

.....

 

[BoeingBoy]

Attrition is not a "career expectation" in the sense the west uses the term. It is a career certainty.

You, of all people, should know better than to argue that a pilot can look at future attrition on the day he/she is hired and predict with "career certainty" what his/her career will be like 5, 10, 15, or 20 years down the road. While attrition may create an expectation (there's that word) of what the future holds, it is in no way a guarantee of what the future will hold.

The only thing that irrefutably tells what a given DOH is worth is the position that it produces on the seniority list. If pilot A's 20 years results in only being 737/Airbus F/O, then that's what his/her 20 years is worth. No more and no less. If some other result was expected because of attrition, that expectation proved to be wrong.

You can put all the lipstick on the DOH pig you want, but it still means taking from the pilots of the faster growing airline and giving it to the pilots of the slower growing (or shrinking) airline. There's just no way to escape that reality. If you truly believe that's fair and equitable, just say so instead of trying to justify the taking.

Jim

 

[nycbusdriver]

While all this was being done to the TWA pilots, I don't recall hearing a peep out of a single USAir pilot about how DOH should have been used. Nicolau was Santa Claus to you guys compared to what the TWA pilots went through.

Don't think the rape of the TWA pilots with the consent of ALPA went unnoticed my the USAirways east pilots. ALPA's treatment of that merger was definitely a factor in booting them the h*** off this property. Over the past few years ALPA has consistently shown that it is interested ONLY in it's own survival and flourishing, and could not care less about the line pilot. The TWA fiasco definitely caught our attention.

 

[Piedmont1984]

You, of all people, should know better than to argue that a pilot can look at future attrition on the day he/she is hired and predict with "career certainty" what his/her career will be like 5, 10, 15, or 20 years down the road. While attrition may create an expectation (there's that word) of what the future holds, it is in no way a guarantee of what the future will hold.

The only thing that irrefutably tells what a given DOH is worth is the position that it produces on the seniority list. If pilot A's 20 years results in only being 737/Airbus F/O, then that's what his/her 20 years is worth. No more and no less. If some other result was expected because of attrition, that expectation proved to be wrong.

You can put all the lipstick on the DOH pig you want, but it still means taking from the pilots of the faster growing airline and giving it to the pilots of the slower growing (or shrinking) airline. There's just no way to escape that reality. If you truly believe that's fair and equitable, just say so instead of trying to justify the taking.

Jim

Let me put it differently. Most of us, when we're being honest, espouse a national seniority list. We shake our heads and condemn the system, ALPA, or individual pilot groups for not having the determination and courage to implement a NSL some twenty five years ago. We acknowledge it's basic fairness, but shrug our shoulders claiming the time has past.

Well, DOH in a seniority integration is the closest thing we will see to a NSL. Some of us are trying to keep the embers from dying out. My definition of seniority in the airline industry is the traditional union definition, the definition of my father's generation.

Just as better or poorer financial condition should be irrelevant in the integration of two labor groups, so should the rate of growth or shrinkage immediately prior to a merger. The average AWA pilot had nothing to do with their rate of growth in 2005, nor did the average AAA pilot with the rate of shrinkage.

Thats my story and I'm sticking to it.

KV

 

[goneflyin]

Don't think the rape of the TWA pilots with the consent of ALPA went unnoticed my the USAirways east pilots. ALPA's treatment of that merger was definitely a factor in booting them the h*** off this property. Over the past few years ALPA has consistently shown that it is interested ONLY in it's own survival and flourishing, and could not care less about the line pilot. The TWA fiasco definitely caught our attention.

I suppose I could look this up, but I'll just ask --

My memory of that transaction is a little hazy, but wasn't the agreement to arbitrate the AA/TWA integration a precondition to AA picking up the assets? I seem to recall that TWA was close to liquidating, and the TWA MEC was pretty desperate for this deal. I agree that the TWA guys got a raw deal, but the their MEC was running out of options for saving jobs.

Not baiting you-- just asking--

 

[nycbusdriver]

Can you say "Cactus"?

Cactus, Cactus, Cactus, Cactus, Cactus, Cactus, Cactus, Cactus .

It isn't "US Air", it IS "Cactus".

What does that suggest?

Can you connect the two dots?

Actually, no.

If Parker's contention that a "change in control" triggers a snapback to book rates in the east pilot contract, then why didn't we snap back to book rates when the merger transaction took place? Simple. There was no change in control for the east (the argument was tested in several venues.) If there was no change in control (and no snapback pay rates,) then this is USAIRWAYS, and NOT American West....as much as you like to think otherwise.

"Cactus" is only the bone that Parker, Kirby and Bular threw your way to shut you up for a little bit. Enjoy that "victory." I tend to look at the call sign as the Australians look at the word cactus: D.O.A.

 

[nycbusdriver]

I suppose I could look this up, but I'll just ask --

My memory of that transaction is a little hazy, but wasn't the agreement to arbitrate the AA/TWA integration a precondition to AA picking up the assets? I seem to recall that TWA was close to liquidating, and the TWA MEC was pretty desperate for this deal. I agree that the TWA guys got a raw deal, but the their MEC was running out of options for saving jobs.

Not baiting you-- just asking--

My memory of the event is similar to yours, but I do recall that there was some outcry in the ranks for ALPA to more vigorously defend the TWA pilots during the arbitration. They were either notoriously silent, or paid lip service to the process.

 

[nycbusdriver]

In your opinion if AWA was such a dirt bag operation. It just must be killing you that our airline had to pull your airline out of the pit.

It was, and is, a dirtbag operation. Sadly, the Tempe brain trust dragged the east down to your level of "service."

What amazes me is how you can justify saying that the west pulled the east out of the pit. A maneuver like that take lots of money,. And American West had none (according to your CEO, you were months from Chapter 11.) So how, pray tell, can a company that was already burning the furniture to stay open "rescue" any other operation?

The record is clear. The money came from various outside third-parties which were recruited by the east C.E.O. Bruce Lakefield. Lakefield, being a retired money man, really wanted nothing to do with the actual operation of an airline, so he gave the job to Parker, who was salivating at the idea of getting to finally operate a real airline. Sadly, we now see he has not the proclivity or talent to do so.

To retierate: Show us the west balance sheet and where exactly the American West money was spent to "pull [our] airline out of the pit."

 

[goneflyin]

My memory of the event is similar to yours, but I do recall that there was some outcry in the ranks for ALPA to more vigorously defend the TWA pilots during the arbitration. They were either notoriously silent, or paid lip service to the process.

Thanks for the reply. I didn't follow it closely enough to know how aggressively the TWA side presented their case in arbitration.

 

[cleardirect]

It was, and is, a dirtbag operation. Sadly, the Tempe brain trust dragged the east down to your level of "service."

What amazes me is how you can justify saying that the west pulled the east out of the pit. A maneuver like that take lots of money,. And American West had none (according to your CEO, you were months from Chapter 11.) So how, pray tell, can a company that was already burning the furniture to stay open "rescue" any other operation?

The record is clear. The money came from various outside third-parties which were recruited by the east C.E.O. Bruce Lakefield. Lakefield, being a retired money man, really wanted nothing to do with the actual operation of an airline, so he gave the job to Parker, who was salivating at the idea of getting to finally operate a real airline. Sadly, we now see he has not the proclivity or talent to do so.

To retierate: Show us the west balance sheet and where exactly the American West money was spent to "pull [our] airline out of the pit."

If it was Lakefield that was able to get the money what did Us Airways need with AWA? He could have hired a CEO. Perhaps you are leaving out some information.

I think that you have it backwards. It was USA that was burning the furniture not AWA. But this is an old argument the merger is done, the arbitration is done.

If must really be killing you guys that little AWA came to your rescue. BTW our dirtbag op is now your dirtbag op, we are all in this together. So tell us when did you stop giving good service? I still do my job and move people on time in a safe manner.

 

[nic4us]

I suppose I could look this up, but I'll just ask --

My memory of that transaction is a little hazy, but wasn't the agreement to arbitrate the AA/TWA integration a precondition to AA picking up the assets? I seem to recall that TWA was close to liquidating, and the TWA MEC was pretty desperate for this deal. I agree that the TWA guys got a raw deal, but the their MEC was running out of options for saving jobs.

Not baiting you-- just asking--

I am absolutley not taking the American side of this arguement, however as I recall there was another twist to the TWA/AA merger. I forget the TWA CEOs name, (may have been Bill Compton ?) was the ex-ALPA MEC chairman for TWA's local. The pilots got a seat on the Board of directors during one of TWA's many bankruptcies, and the board later made the ex-MEC chair president, then CEO. When the merger took place, the CEO protected the senior pilots by getting their pensions guaranteed by the aquiring American. So the shortimers could finish their career and still have their pension, no matter where they ended up on the overall seniority list, while those with 10-15 years would get tossed under the bus and go to the bottom at American.

 

[700UW]

Seems no east pilot wants to answer what are you going to do when US imposes a CBA after the RLA steps have been exhausted? You cant delay it forever.

 

[oscarjazz]

My memory of the event is similar to yours, but I do recall that there was some outcry in the ranks for ALPA to more vigorously defend the TWA pilots during the arbitration. They were either notoriously silent, or paid lip service to the process.

There was no arbitration in AA/TWA merger. As a pre-condition of getting bought by AMR, the TWA pilots waived the section of their scope clause that gave them process protections during a merger. Therefore the SLI was conducted under an agreement where all three parties (including AMR management) would attempt to come to a negotiated solution. If that failed, then the APA would get to build the list themselves. The TWA pilots managed the process horribly, initially demanding Date of Hire (sound familiar?). At one point they tried to get legislation introduced mandating Date of Hire for their case. Obviously, this failed and they succeeded only in stirring up a hornet's nest. In the end, the APA came up with their virtual staple job and fences.

Now, of course, the TWA pilots are suing ALPA because they have money. They ignored every piece of advice that national ALPA gave them, but still it is National ALPA's fault (sound familiar?).

This cram-down by the APA (and the flight attendants did the same thing) is the reason for the Bond-McCaskill legislation that mandates that every group get access to the Neg/Med/Arb process laid out in the Allegheny/Mohawk labor protective provisions. And, no, those LPP's do not mandate date of hire, the standard is "fair and equitable" (sound familiar?).

The lesson to be learned is that you are much better off negotiating from a realistic set of goals and expectations rather than digging into an untenable situation and then refusing to move. (sound familiar?)