US Pilots Labor Discussion 3/19- STAY ON TOPIC AND OBSERVE THE RULES

[cleardirect]

I believe that the metrics used in determining our particular merger should have had time in service to the company as metric number one.

Also, what we had prior to the merger was attrition - which Nicolau took away, although the intervening time has partially restored.

I don't want any west pilot to pay for my career dissappointments, and I don't want any west pilot to reap a windfall as a result of a flawed arbitrator's decision.

Again work to change it for the NEXT merger.

Why is it that now attrition is important AFTER the arbitration? Why was that not brought up DURING the arbitration?

Because DOH was going to get you everything you wanted. Should have listened to Nicolau when he told you to change your position. That was the time to value attrition not now.

 

[Piedmont1984]

Clear

Even dominant companies have their vulnerabilities. Look at our attempt at making Delta our Delta.

I concede that the wounds suffered by this pilot group (the east) have been self inflicted. We either supported the change in ALPA merger policy, or we did nothing about it.

But I also believe that all is fair in love and war - within reason

 

[Phoenix]

.... Continuing to go over this and try and justify it is just going to make you guys crazy. It is what it is, it is done. Time to accept and move on.

Yeah. Its pretty obvious that its all over already. Go easy there with all the posts trying to persuade everyone of the obvious. All of us already know that it is over and we have moved on.. months ago. You're kinda out there by yourself right now. Slowly begin to walk a little faster to catch up and maybe no one will notice. :blush:

 

[Piedmont1984]

Again work to change it for the NEXT merger.

Why is it that now attrition is important AFTER the arbitration? Why was that not brought up DURING the arbitration?

Because DOH was going to get you everything you wanted. Should have listened to Nicolau when he told you to change your position. That was the time to value attrition not now.

Man you're fast on the keyboard.

I think in an arbitration we make our case, you make your case, we stick to our positions and let the arbitrator apply his wisdom and experience to render a decision which leaves both sides equally satisfied or dissatisfied.

 

[BoeingBoy]

BoeingBoy

I think a pilot with twenty years at the same company is entitled to have that time translated into his/her position on a seniority list - before, after or during a merger. Quite simple.

So what position did 15 years get one on the East seniority list in 2005? How about 20 years? A 757 captain position? Furloughed? Whatever each of those was before the merger, it was their time at the same company translated to a position on their seniority list. Just as you said it should.

The same goes for the West pilots - their time with the same company translated to a position on the West seniority list. Just as you said. All Nic did was take those positions, held because of time at the respective airline, and put the pilots together based on those positions. So the East pilot has approximately the same position on the combined list as was held on the East list. Each West pilot has approximately the same position on the combined list as was held on the West list.

What the DOH crowd wants is for an East pilot to get a lot more for their time after the merger than before while a West pilot gets a lot less. In effect, taking from the West what their years with their airline got them. For what reason? To give it to the East pilots. You can try to dress it up all you want, but the reality is that DOH says that a West pilot got their position on their list dishonestly and therefore that position should be an East pilot's.

Jim

 

[cactusboy53]

Yeah. Its pretty obvious that its all over already. Go easy there with all the posts trying to persuade everyone of the obvious. All of us already know that it is over and we have moved on.. months ago. You're kinda out there by yourself right now. Slowly begin to walk a little faster to catch up and maybe no one will notice. :blush:

Phoenix;
Here's the problem. You state that "all of us already know that it is over and we have moved on..month's ago."

The DFR lawsuit was brought up because the west pilot group thought there was a failure to represent this pilot group while billing us & taking our dues money. If the decision found by a jury in Judge Wake's courtroom is affirmed, the damages phase of the trial will go through. If damages are found, the offending party will be held responsible for damages. If all of you knew that it was over and were willing to move on, then why did you not take control of USAPA BEFORE any damages were done? USAPA is looking at the possiblity of a counter suit from the C-18 AND a damages assessment for the DFR lawsuit (a potential multi-million dollar damage claim).

The clock is ticking. Are you going to let the USAPA leadership to continue to endanger your professional and financial positions?

 

[Be Careful What You Wish For.]

I think a pilot with twenty years at the same company is entitled to have that time translated into his/her position on a seniority list - before, after or during a merger. Quite simple.

If 20 years gets you reserve, pre-merger (or whatever the number is) doesn't that get you reserve, post-merger?

If you don't negotiate then you better be prepared to accept what decision is made for you.

This may end up as a strategic mistake in the long term.

By ignoring the "Nic" you may have inadvertently codified it into any future merger as a legal precedent .

What do the short timers want? Since it's all about money - do they want to get higher wages before they have to cash out?

 

[cleardirect]

Yeah. Its pretty obvious that its all over already. Go easy there with all the posts trying to persuade everyone of the obvious. All of us already know that it is over and we have moved on.. months ago. You're kinda out there by yourself right now. Slowly begin to walk a little faster to catch up and maybe no one will notice. :blush:

If that were true what was the Addington appeal about? It you have accepted the Nicolau as the list why fight it?

If you all have accepted it why all of the questions. If you have accepted it and moved on then where are the questions about a new contract? That is the next step.

 

[Piedmont1984]

So what position did 15 years get one on the East seniority list in 2005? How about 20 years? A 757 captain position? Furloughed? Whatever each of those was before the merger, it was their time at the same company translated to a position on their seniority list. Just as you said it should.

The same goes for the West pilots - their time with the same company translated to a position on the West seniority list. Just as you said. All Nic did was take those positions, held because of time at the respective airline, and put the pilots together based on those positions. So the East pilot has approximately the same position on the combined list as was held on the East list. Each West pilot has approximately the same position on the combined list as was held on the West list.

What the DOH crowd wants is for an East pilot to get a lot more for their time after the merger than before while a West pilot gets a lot less. In effect, taking from the West what their years with their airline got them. For what reason? To give it to the East pilots. You can try to dress it up all you want, but the reality is that DOH says that a West pilot got their position on their list dishonestly and therefore that position should be an East pilot's.

Jim

You leave out attrition. A fifteen year pilot in the east was looking at a bunch of attrition, albeit postponed by five years since then. The arbitrator shifted that attrition to the west.

Would have been better to favor LOS and install a good set of fence provisions. No side would then be accused of taking from or benefiting at the expense of the other.

 

[cleardirect]

You leave out attrition. A fifteen year pilot in the east was looking at a bunch of attrition, albeit postponed by five years since then. The arbitrator shifted that attrition to the west.

Would have been better to favor LOS and install a good set of fence provisions. No side would then be accused of taking from or benefiting at the expense of the other.

Should have asked for fences and something less than LOS at the time. During arbitration I think the west would have agreed, but not now to late.

When the arbitrator told you guys that you were not going to get DOH/LOS what was the thinking for not offering something else? Lie fences. Can you explain?

 

[Be Careful What You Wish For.]

Would have been better to favor LOS and install a good set of fence provisions. No side would then be accused of taking from or benefiting at the expense of the other.

Please correct me if I'm wrong but according to what has been presented here DOH was the ONLY option - was there ever anything else offered by the East PRIOR to the arbitrators decision ?

Live by the sword die by the sword.

I have to commend you for leaving out all the "integrity" and other superfluous chaff out of the conversation.

 

[BoeingBoy]

You leave out attrition.

Attrition, or rather it's consequences, falls squarely into that "career expectations" that you said aren't worth anything. So you tell me - a PI newhire in 1988 expecting to be a captain in 2-3 years was reasonable or not? What did attrition get the bottom working East pilot between 1991 and 1997? How about from 2002 to 2007? Going back even further, what good did attrition do the BN pilots when their carrier went out of business? Or the EA pilots?

So what are you really saying? That West expectations aren't worth anything because they were based on fleet projections and attrition but that East expectations were guaranteed no matter what happened? Or that only East expectations for the dividends of attrition count?

Jim

 

[luvn737s]

Is your career your profession? Or is it the color of your tie and the emblem on your hat?

Are you alluding to a National Seniority List? Do you think an arbitrator should have said,"There should be no lifetime First Officers, therefore the list shall be ordered so as to allow First Officers with the longest time with either company to upgrade first." Or should it be ordered to as closely approximate bidding position of the pilots on the combined list as they presently are on their respective lists.

If you rationally view the new list as autonomous rather than as an extension of the USAirways list, then this is quite obviously the fairest method.

If you look at the new list as 1800 pilots crammed on "your" list, then you probably feel the need to defend the invasion, or some such lunacy. Perhaps enough to form a new union with the express intent of doing just that

 

[TheBadCat1313]

You leave out attrition. A fifteen year pilot in the east was looking at a bunch of attrition, albeit postponed by five years since then. The arbitrator shifted that attrition to the west.

Would have been better to favor LOS and install a good set of fence provisions. No side would then be accused of taking from or benefiting at the expense of the other.

To hear this arguement, you'd think that the east would never benefit from their attrition under Nicolau. The west brought attrition, as well. More importantly though, the west brought much additional flying. That translates to a larger airline, with more upgrades than the east would have had without the merger. When there is a combined CBA and upgrades start again, 2/3 of those upgrades will go to east pilots. Under DOH, ALL of those upgrades would have gone to east pilots, delaying upgrades for years for west pilots who would otherwise have been in the left seat.

 

[HPearlyretiree]

You leave out attrition. A fifteen year pilot in the east was looking at a bunch of attrition, albeit postponed by five years since then. The arbitrator shifted that attrition to the west.

Would have been better to favor LOS and install a good set of fence provisions. No side would then be accused of taking from or benefiting at the expense of the other.

Without the merger, that pilot was looking at unemployment, so his lofty dreams of attrition really don't factor in here. Sucks when reality gets in the way.